it ain't turkeys but...

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trkyklr
 
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it ain't turkeys but...

Postby trkyklr » December 23rd, 2008, 6:03 am

what about them song dogs?i've been thinkin 'bout takin up coyote huntin' thru the off season so all of you dog hunters out there,throw me some tips i'm for sure the rookie in this category
 
thanx guys

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Gobblerman
 
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RE: it ain't turkeys but...

Postby Gobblerman » December 23rd, 2008, 11:21 am

Hey, Ken, you should definitely try getting out there and calling coyotes.  I used to do a lot of it here in NM, but have not been doing it much in the last few years.  When the fur prices went down, I just pretty much stopped.  I won't shoot one of them unless I am going to take the time to skin it out, and that's enough of a messy job that it's got to be worth the effort for me to do it. 
 
I'm no expert on predator calling, but as far as I could tell, there really isn't a lot to it.  You get you a predator call or two and just get out there where the dogs are and get after it.  I used to try to get to my first stand right at daylight, set-up and call for about 10-15 minutes,....if nothing showed up, I would move a mile or so to the next spot and repeat.  You've got to watch the wind direction some, and they supposedly respond better under certain moon phases and weather conditions, but for the most part, I would just go out when I could go and keep calling.  Sometimes they will come and sometimes they won't.   
 
I think one of the biggest factors is whether or not they have been getting called to a lot in an area.  Coyotes will learn very quickly not to come to predator calls.  If there are many callers in your area, they will be difficult to call in, and you will have to find places where the dogs aren't getting called too much. 
 
I always carried a rifle and a shotgun with buckshot when calling.  If a dog was coming and he got within shotgun range, it was all over but the skinning.  The rifle was for those yotes that wouldn't get close enough for the scattergun. 
 
All in all, it's a lot like turkey hunting, except they don't gobble and come in strutting!  Take away that major shortcoming, though, and dog callin' is a great way to pass the time before spring gobbler season!
 
Jim

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mark hay
 
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RE: it ain't turkeys but...

Postby mark hay » December 23rd, 2008, 11:49 am

hey KEN
first off , let it be known that i ain't no expert on the subject , but i do have quite a bit of schoolin' and field experience.
i want to throw out some of my thoughts for you to consider EACH time you go after CANIS LATRANS.
have you ever been around a dog (family pet) that could hear a familiar vehicle coming ,and get all excited long before you could hear or see it?
my point here is that dogs have exceptional hearing . keep that in mind .
have you ever seen a dog that would sit off by itself and watch or look in some direction at a house or woodlot?  what do you think they are doing?
what i'm trying to lead up to is the fact that the family pet , especially if it spends a lot of time outside , has nearly the same characteristics as a coyote.
 the pet gets used to a specific sounding truck and knows when its owner is about to arrive .
the coyote lives in close proximity to man and likewise gets familiar with certain sounds that come from certain barn lots or home sites. deer and turkey hunting pressure effects the coyote too. and long after the woods are free of hunters and you drive into a parking lot on your favorite hunting area, well i dare say that the coyote associate that truck noise to what usually follows ,,,loud guns and humans. no he doesn't know what a gun is but he does know what a human is ,,,and when they get loud and make dirt fly up or cause pain they will be very cautious . im convinced that they , like the pet, do not forget . confused possibly , but don't forget.
and like turkeys that will go away from an unseen yelping hunter, the coyote will do the same to a TOO loud dying rabbit. many areas in my neck of the woods are called so much ,and seems like everyone starts out with the dying rabbit,,like beginning turkey hunters many times WEAR OUT the yelp of a hen.
 primos has one of the best if not the best educational CDs on the subject.  MASTERING THE ART OF CALLING COYOTES. it is top of the line and usually comes with some type of howler. the primos '' LIL DOG '' howler is a great dual purpose call.
  quiet access to where you want to call from is critical.
 call into a crosswind with the greatest field of view being downwind.
SHOOTING STICKS,,, they are a must .
 like turkey hunting ,, sit still.
theres more that'll help call in those TURKEY EATIN' VERMIN
  later             hay

trkyklr
 
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RE: it ain't turkeys but...

Postby trkyklr » December 23rd, 2008, 11:57 am

thanx for the pointers fellers,i purchased a primos "hotdog" call last year & it came with a cd but i sound like shhhh although i havent practiced much with it i think i can sound like a dead rabbit, its the howling that i have been strugglin with i recon ill keep @ it we got 2/3 more weeks of deer season so i wont start on the dogs until it ends & mark i know what you mean with the porch poodle & that makes fine since sir ill keep that in mind thanx again  

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mark hay
 
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RE: it ain't turkeys but...

Postby mark hay » December 23rd, 2008, 12:32 pm

like i've said before ,,,when i'm tired i don't think too good
since you are already familiar with diaphram calls  you should check out the PRIMOS ''DOUBLE HOWLER '' diaphram.
i rarely use the trumpet style howlers since i got a double howler. it's a fine turkey call too. it don't take long to figure out the fawn bawl , distressed rabbit, house cat , coyote pup distress, adult coyote distress and more on the double howler.
remember too that mixing up the calls is recommended and once you made visual on a dog ,most times you can just kiss him, or lipsqueak to get him to come in close enough for the shot.
ALWAYS STOP THE DOG FOR THE SHOT!!! just whistle like you were calling the family dog,,,or bark with your natural voice,,,if that fails give him a long , high pitched howl.  but if it has winded you ,,,forget it , they won't generally stop for anything after they catch human scent.
learning to stop the coyote ,and remembering to do so is a vital part of success,,,,,,it must be done before he gets downwind of your setup.

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mark hay
 
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RE: it ain't turkeys but...

Postby mark hay » December 23rd, 2008, 1:38 pm

there are 19 sub-species of coyotes in north am.
the 'yotes out west are mostly in WIDE open areas and they have to travel farther for each meal . here in the east where WE are things are quite a bit different. food is more abundant . cover is more abundant.
in my experience , 1 hour is minimum on any given stand. i like an open view of at least 200 yrds downwind. looking cross wind can vary from 25 yrds and up to your rifles limit.
more than 99% of 'yotes will attempt to get downwind of the caller WHEN a distress sound is employed. this and the fact that so many are using prey in distress sounds is why i use the Randy Anderson style of howling.
learning the different howls and what they mean to a coyote is a lot of fun in itself. also when employed in a calling situation the 'yotes will often come in with the wind or cross wind to the caller.
that ''HOT DOG '' howler is a fine long range howler. the ''LIL DOG '' is a more close range howler. what is close ? 1 mile
i've had 'yotes howl back to me from at least a mile when i use the ''DOUBLE HOWLER '' diaphram , and it is not as loud as the lil dog , and the lil dog not as loud as the hot dog   see my point? large tracts of timber and steep ridges will shorten the distance , but don't underestimate the 'yotes hearing.
they can hear sounds that might seem extremely faint to us.
ther are many aspects of howling that i enjoy. one is learning what each howl means. and being able to know what is being relayed to other 'yotes . standing in the pre-dawn last springs opening day of turkey season, heard a 'yote give out several warning howls. no doubt he was onto the boys and me or some other turkey hunter trying to slip in the woods . i like it!    you will too!

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allaboutshooting
 
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RE: it ain't turkeys but...

Postby allaboutshooting » December 23rd, 2008, 1:58 pm

Hey Ken,

I've never actually hunted coyotes. I often see and of course hear them when I'm hunting something else. The other day I was in a local gun shop visiting with some friends and learned that one of my friends has really gotten into coyote hunting.

We have lots of reclaimed strip mine ground here and I guess a lot more coyotes that I'd ever suspected. Jack, my friend, killed 9 on one recent morning! When the other guys started talking, I realized just how many of coyotes have been shot in this area. Many guys use really long range rifles on that strip mine ground. They were really talking about some long shots.

There seems to be no lack of places to hunt them here. Most folks don't want them on their ground and welcome hunters, at least the local variety.

Thanks,
Clark
"If he's out of range, it just means that he has another day and so do you."

trkyklr
 
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RE: it ain't turkeys but...

Postby trkyklr » December 23rd, 2008, 3:15 pm

sounds very interesting guys,sounds like some heart pounding action too,you know mark i think the trumpet portion comes off that call to make that lil dog you are talkin about & i will be @ the store tomorrow lookin for that double howler thats for sure.the guys @ work will be cussin i know they get tired of me yakin' on my turkey calls thanx for the help clark & mark keep them tips comin'

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mark hay
 
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RE: it ain't turkeys but...

Postby mark hay » December 24th, 2008, 2:14 am

that's right CLARK
here in ohio the coyote has expanded its range and population at or above the rate of the turkey. most people don't have a clue they are here. the public land where i do most of my turkey hunting showed little sign of coyotes ten years ago, and the turkey pop. was greater then than now .
today if you walk any of the two-track trails through the area you'll see it littered with scat containing deer hair and turkey bones.
as turkey hunters i believe we should utilize the off seasons to work on these eating machines. and yet no amount of hunting will eliminate them, which i don't want anyway, but can reduce damaging numbers in any given area.
 there are no doubt some educational  recordings to be had. the only one i have is by ED SCEERY. it is a good learning tape of actual field recordings of coyote vocabulary. ED breaks it down and explains the different barks and howls and how to use them or not to use them. FOR EXAMPLE; i went hunting one evening with a fellow that had killed a few dogs and seemed to know how . upon leaving the truck he was carrying about 35 pounds of gear, walked carelessly through the woods, and talked too loud. right off i wished i'd stayed home , but went ahead to possibly pick up some useful info. he turned on a tapeplayer with a housecat recording . it started out low and natural , but soon turned into a 300 pound cat with its tail caught in a car door. this went on for several minutes . as soon as he stopped the tape a coyote started giving us the warning bark. he didn't know what it was or meant , nor did he believe me when i told him all the errors made  before we actually set up. my point here is that it is just like turkey hunting,,,, we strive to learn more and more turkey talk to help us in the woods ,,,coyote hunting is no different. the more we know and apply , the greater success with more consistency.

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mark hay
 
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RE: it ain't turkeys but...

Postby mark hay » December 24th, 2008, 2:56 am

the shot
i've seen on video and in the field coyotes shot in the heart and in the lungs. heart shots will usually result in a dog making a few short circles and then running. a lung shot will usually drop them in their tracks.
i've used 6.5 x 55 with 85 gr. h.p. , and .223 with 40 gr. ballsitic tip and the results were the same concerning the heart vs. the lungs . either way the dog is dead,,,,the lung shot saves tracking.
if i remember correctly KEN , you mentioned a .243 in your array of shooters. that my friend is FINE choice , especially with light bullets.
later fellers

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