lead vs. hevi

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wisturkeyhunter
 
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lead vs. hevi

Postby wisturkeyhunter » March 1st, 2009, 7:25 am

Alot of guys are saying hevi shot is equal to lead 2 or even 3 shot sizes bigger. I wouldn't hunt with hevi-13 cause I've seen it fail to penetrate close to what nickel plated lead did on some wood stakes I was using to hold paper before. I won't hunt with something I don't have confidence in. I think thats due to the slow velocity. Nitros are faster and so are alot of handloads so I think they'd penetrate as good or even slightly better than lead. Alot of guys test the high density loads on sheets of metal and because it penetrate better than lead they think it automatically does better on live birds. I don't buy that. The question I'm asking is how much better is hevi shot than quality nickel or copper plated lead?
Theres young school and theres old school.
I'm still in school.

icdedturkes
 
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RE: lead vs. hevi

Postby icdedturkes » March 1st, 2009, 7:55 am

I shoot a twenty and shoot hevi. I have tested every conceivable lead load availiable and there is no comparison in pattern density. The hevi flat out outpatterns the lead in a twenty. With this being said if Lead outperformed hevi outta my twenty, I would shoot it, no doubt sixes have the energy to kill a bird at forty. But the fact of the matter in my twenty the lead dont pattern worth a squat.

Magnumdood
 
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RE: lead vs. hevi

Postby Magnumdood » March 6th, 2009, 7:06 pm

ORIGINAL: TurkeyComander

Guys can say and claim anything...

Hevi-shot passed the no-tox test for now lead doesn't.

Hevi shot is harder than lead that's the reason it patterns better because it's not deformed during launch.

A Hevi-shot pellet is a mi'nute amount heavier than lead pellet...claims of a great increase in killing power over lead are just that..."claims".

A while back some claimed a use of one pellet size smaller was possible with Hevi-shot...

There's mathematical equation for foot pounds of energy using weight and velosity....

I don't see the smaller sizes of Hevi-shot say 7.5 & up holding up with much wallop for the great distances some claim.


There's also a mathematical equation to determine the Ballistic Coefficient of a projectile; ballistic coefficient being the aerodymanic properties of the projectile.  For example, compare two 180 grain projectiles.  They are the exact same shape.  However, one projectile weighs 15 micro-grams per square centimeter and the other projectile weighs 10 micro-grams per square centimeter.

The projectile constructed of the denser material (15 micro-grams per cubic centimeter) will by definition be smaller (shorter) than the less dense projectile, or, the same length but of a smaller diameter (.308 vs. 7mm).  Given the correct twist of the barrel to properly stabilize the projectile, the denser projectile will not be subject to as much air-friction and will retain its velocity better than the less dense projectile.  A hyperbolic comparison would be a lead ball fired at 500 fps vs a Styrofoam ball fired at 500 fps.  Would the Styrofoam ball even make it to the 100 yard mark?

Thus, at 500 yards, the denser projectile will retain more velocity than the less dense projectile, and the {(mass x [velocity squared])/2} equation calculating Kinetic Energy (KE) demonstrates the smaller projectile will retain more KE, or, hit harder because it retains more velocity, the squared component of the KE equation.

So, transfer the above to shotshell shot.  Combine the KE argument above with the fact that the HTL shot is hard and does not deform, thus, retains it's BC and it's aerodynamic properties, whereas lead does deform and becomes less aerodynamic.  It's easy to see that #7 HTL shot will strike with the same KE at 40 yards as does a #5 lead shot, and it does it with many more pellets per shell. 

The #7 pellets are flying faster at 40 yards than the #5 pellets, so they hit harder.

Elementary my dear Watson.

Don S
 
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RE: lead vs. hevi

Postby Don S » March 7th, 2009, 12:53 am

Butt..... Isn't Hevi-Shot deformed already? look at their web and they say this irregular shape is why they fly/penetrate better.
Are golf balls smooth?
will a 180 grain Hornady roundnose hit harder at 500 yards then a Barnes 180 TTSX? It's denser, lead verses copper
density plays a part but so does shape, we don't have round race cars.
Hevi says that when comparing lead to hevi drop down 1 size
think about this.... hevi is denser so LESS pellets per ounce, less pellets to squeeze through that choke at one time.... OH but 7's have more then 5's, but they are also smaller, they will conform easier
smaller pellets do have less resistance to air and flesh, less to grab on to, so they penetrate more (comparing 2 pellets equal weight, different size, same speed)
all to a point of diminishing returns
I know I just opened a can of worms, so bring on the NASA engineers

Magnumdood
 
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RE: lead vs. hevi

Postby Magnumdood » March 7th, 2009, 1:52 am

I was talking more about the Federal (15 mcg/cm) and TSS (18 mcg/cm).  Both are "golf ball" smooth (golf balls are NOT smooth), and both are hard compared to lead (10 mcg/cm) which is soft and deforms.

No can of worms there.  The BC shape equations (ROUND) work fine as does the KE equation.

That stuff can literally allow you to move down 2 sizes smaller in shot.

pabeard buster
 
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RE: lead vs. hevi

Postby pabeard buster » March 7th, 2009, 2:19 am

i hunt with remington nitro turkeys, i have spent hours stairing at hevi shot and winchester elites. the problem is, that i just cant aford them. if the velocity on them wasnt so low, i would crack the walet, and i would give them a shot. but after patterning, it would just a too expensive of a risk, and i know they will pattern well. i just dont know about that velocity.
 
so the question is whose got the finaces, the means, and time to do a ballistics test with the hevy loads vs. the lead loads. shoot a dead animal, or a block of ballistic gell. sounds like a job for my friends at discovery channel, "mythbusters." lol
cluck cluck,
Gobble Gobble Gobble,
BANG!

Don S
 
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RE: lead vs. hevi

Postby Don S » March 7th, 2009, 2:35 am

the question was about Hevi, Dood is right about Federal and TSS, but do you want to shoot that down your barrel? TSS will not replace your barrel WHEN it gets damaged
point of diminishing returns......game dead, gun dead
for the record I am shooting HEVI-13 2 1/4oz 6 shot, that is the best in MY gun

icdedturkes
 
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RE: lead vs. hevi

Postby icdedturkes » March 7th, 2009, 4:12 am

ORIGINAL: pabeard buster

i hunt with remington nitro turkeys, i have spent hours stairing at hevi shot and winchester elites. the problem is, that i just cant aford them. if the velocity on them wasnt so low, i would crack the walet, and i would give them a shot. but after patterning, it would just a too expensive of a risk, and i know they will pattern well. i just dont know about that velocity.

so the question is whose got the finaces, the means, and time to do a ballistics test with the hevy loads vs. the lead loads. shoot a dead animal, or a block of ballistic gell. sounds like a job for my friends at discovery channel, "mythbusters." lol
Ohhh its gonna happen this weekend. Two guys from another forum are going to shoot butterball turkeys with hevi shot and lead to see what penetrates a bird better. I know you arent supposed to shoot them in the body but it should provide some insight into penetration, plus bone breaking properties.
 
Otherwise, it is going to be plain comical. Either one will easily break turkey neck bones at 40 yds and that is all that matters.

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Steve_In
 
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RE: lead vs. hevi

Postby Steve_In » March 7th, 2009, 11:52 am

Two guys from another forum are going to shoot butterball turkeys with hevi shot and lead to see what penetrates a bird better.
  I wonder if they will [:D]thaw[:D] them first.  Dead is dead.  It is all in what you want to do and how much you want to pay. 
Steve, I love "smoked" turkey

Magnumdood
 
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RE: lead vs. hevi

Postby Magnumdood » March 7th, 2009, 12:29 pm

Aw hell...a 2 3/4 shell filled with 1.75 oz of #6 lead will kill a turkey out of a fixed full-choke barrel at 40 yards.

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