Limited Patterning

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Big10Inch
 
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Limited Patterning

Postby Big10Inch » April 17th, 2011, 4:22 pm

Well, I finally got out today to shoot in the wet snow and wind. Our opening day is April 25, so it was almost now or never.

First gun, I was shooting a Model 870™ Express® Shurshot™ Synthetic Turkey. It has a 21" barrel and is chambered for 3". The optics were a Bushnell red dot.
-the temperature was 36 F (0C), windy with wet snow falling,
-the barrel was deep cleaned, but it appears to have 2 pits in it and machine marks are visible,
-hits were counted in a 10" circle,
-hits were counted within the circle as it appeared on the target (cirlce was not optimized),
-the barrel was not cleaned beween shots,
-shots were taken off of a weighted Lead Sled fastened to a Workmate work bench (very stable),
-shotshells were 12 ga. 3" Supreme Elite™ Xtended™ Range HD Turkey #6 shot (heavier than lead).

Results:
Choke Tube: Indian Creek 0.665 Stainless Steel
Range: 40 yards
Hits: 89, 84, 113, 57

Due to weather and time of day (6PM-7:45PM), the gun was not cleaned between tubes.

Results:
Choke Tube: SSX
Range: 40 yards
Hits: 91, 83, 96

Thanks to Clark Bush for getting the SSX up to me. The old ponies were slow, but they made it! With this shell and gun, the SSX provided more consistent patterns and numbers.

Are these pellet count numbers high, low or medium?

The 96 pellet count was the 7th consecutive shot without cleaning the barrel. I know that this has a detrimental effect, but I don't know how much of an effect it has.

The second gun is a Browning Auto 5, 28" chambered for 2 3/4". It was deep cleaned and the bore was spotless. All parameters noted under 'first gun' apply except for the shotshells.
-shotshells were the Hevi 13 2 3/4" #6,
-optics were fibre optic open sights.

Results:
Choke Tube: [b]Gobble Stopper[/b] 0.643?? Clark??
Range: 40 yards
Hits: 114

The results with the Auto 5 were surprisingly good. I was running out of daylight and getting rather wet, so I stopped. I also had a whack of lead, copper plated high velocity, etc. that I wanted to test, but I ran out of time.

I really wanted to try the 3" Hevi 13s #6, but half of Canada is looking for them and they can't be found here. Maybe next year.

Peter

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DeanoZ
 
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RE: Limited Patterning

Postby DeanoZ » April 18th, 2011, 2:21 am

Having gone through this dance before over the last month I'd say anything less than 100 pellets in a 10" @ 40 yards would be less than desirable.  However, without optimizing your 10" circle for the highest concentration its hard to tell.  I have an 870 Express Mag as well except with the 28" barrel and I use the Ind Crk .665 too.  Out of my set-up I had a pellet count of 135 in a 10" circle at 40 yards with an optimized pattern shooting the Win Extd Rg 3" 1.75oz #6's.  Personally I was disappointed for all the hype abut these shells.  What I found worked best for my setup were the Hevi-13 and  Win XX Mag #6's, both gave me a count around 153 @ 40 yards.  I still think I can do better and after the season I may get my hands on one of Clark's SSX's and see if that works any better.  Oh and I did not clean my barrel in between shots, I personally don't think that's necessary, but a good deep cleaning before you start shooting is what I do per Clark's suggestion.

Big10Inch
 
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RE: Limited Patterning

Postby Big10Inch » April 18th, 2011, 5:19 am

Thanks Deanoz.

I wish that I had payed more attention to your post "Patterning Results...Interesting". I had some of the Win XX 6s with me, but did not shoot them and easily could have. I also had Remington Nitros, high velocity, copper buffered and Hevi 13 2 3/4" 6s. I may get an opportunity to sneak out one more evening before I head out and try them.

My reasoning for not optimizing the 10" circle was that I wanted to count pellets in the area I was aiming at. It may be flawed logic, but that was what I had in mind.

I really want to try the 3" Hevi 13s but it is almost impossible to get them. Our local retailer is waiting for his supply. The shells apparently crossed at Maine into New Brunswick to the wholesaler, but the wholesaler does not have the necessary paperwork to ship within Canada. Go figure...

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DeanoZ
 
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RE: Limited Patterning

Postby DeanoZ » April 18th, 2011, 9:41 am

I feel your pain, when your just starting out with a gun you've never patterned before it can be challenging.  Lots of shell/choke combos and unless you have unlimited time and $$$ it can get to be real expensive quick!  What I tried to do was go with what most others have experienced in terms of shell/choke combos for my gun.  You'll get a lot of answers but a few will stick out..and above all else LISTEN TO CLARK!!  He knows what he is talking about!  The Win XX shot great, as did the Hevi-13, as did the Hevi Magnum Blends...nitros and Federals were the worst.  I've tried the Ind Crk .665 and .650, the Kicks .655, a Factory Rem Full and a Rem Xtended Rg Choke...of all those the Ind Creek .665 worked the best...BUT..I'm not done...I still think I can do better so I'm going to try Clark's SSX next and see what happens there.  If you already have his choke and can get out one more time I suggest you run the Win XX through it as well as your Ind Crk and if you can get a hold of the Hevi magnum blends that is as good or better than the Hevi-13...and actually before you do any anything else I suggest you take a few of the loads you won't be using and use them to sight in your gun or at least get a feel for how its shooting.  Start at 15 yards and take 3 shots that should tell you where your hitting on the paper.  if your on just aim like normal at 40 yards and squeeze real slow so you don't pull the shot.  If your off, keep that in mind and compensate.  When you draw that 10" circle around your pattern find the densest part this way you'll know what your truly patterning.  Last bit of advice (as was given to me), this is just a starting point, your gun likes what your gun likes, so if the Ind Crks and Hevi-13 don't work for ya, move on and try different shells, or if all the shells your shooting don't pattern worth a darn try a different choke..try and borrow your friends chokes so you don't waste a ton on chokes..or send your gun to Clark and have him do it..for what i spent in ammo and chokes he could have done it 3 times over...but then again I've had a whole lot of fun trying too :)

Big10Inch
 
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RE: Limited Patterning

Postby Big10Inch » April 18th, 2011, 12:37 pm

In my short time on this post, I've had quite a bit of contact with Clark. I think that he responded to my second post on this site. I'm also on another Ontario forum and I have sent a few guys from that forum to Clark (don't know if they are buying anything). Most people up here are after the Pure Gold, which he carries...don't know why.

I've had the 870 since last March and I have only used the factory tube until this past weekend. I did try a variety of loads last year as I had to sight in the red dot. I use paper plates at 10 yards mounted on a 2x4 driven into the ground and I use el cheapo partridge loads to get on the plates and then I tweak the scope at 40 yards with the turkey loads. The gun is pretty much on the mark. I'm shooting off of a weighted Lead Sled and there is no flinching although there was a bit (lot?) of flinching last year before I got the Lead Sled (birthday gift).

For me, the SSX returned the most consistent pattern and density. Although the numbers were not stellar, I think that my pattern density will improve in the warmer weather. I have another post under SHOOTING where I describe some barrel pitting and machine marks. This might also be causing me some grief although there are no holes in the pattern. I may get the forcing cone lengthened and I can get the bore honed at the same time.

Does anyone know if a lengthened forcing cone will be a benefit to an 870 or is the factory cone length sufficient?

With any luck, I will get my hands on some Hevi 13 #6s this year, but there is no guarantee it will be here for later in the turkey season.

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allaboutshooting
 
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Location: Southern Illinois, U.S.A.

RE: Limited Patterning

Postby allaboutshooting » April 19th, 2011, 11:48 am

Hey Peter,

I think the key information in your post is the temperature. At 36 degrees, those patterns don't sound too bad, especially considering that you were not necessarily counting the "best" 10" area.

A little higher temperature and counting the best 10" will probably shoot those results way up there.

Thanks,
Clark
"If he's out of range, it just means that he has another day and so do you."

Big10Inch
 
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Joined: January 31st, 2011, 1:20 pm

RE: Limited Patterning

Postby Big10Inch » April 19th, 2011, 2:00 pm

Thanks Clark.
Like most people, I would like to know that the gun will perform at 40 yards, yet I have taken my four birds so far at 26, 20, 20 and 14 yards. It's likely that a .410 would have worked in those cases. If I get to do any more shooting, I will post the results and maybe even take a crack at posting some pics.

Another question; does the cold cause increased resistance in a shot pattern, therefore a faster spreading pattern, the same way a wing gets extra lift in the cold? Just curious...

Peter

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allaboutshooting
 
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RE: Limited Patterning

Postby allaboutshooting » April 22nd, 2011, 5:07 am

ORIGINAL: Big10Inch

Thanks Clark.
Like most people, I would like to know that the gun will perform at 40 yards, yet I have taken my four birds so far at 26, 20, 20 and 14 yards. It's likely that a .410 would have worked in those cases. If I get to do any more shooting, I will post the results and maybe even take a crack at posting some pics.

Another question; does the cold cause increased resistance in a shot pattern, therefore a faster spreading pattern, the same way a wing gets extra lift in the cold? Just curious...

Peter


Hey Peter,

It sounds like you've been quite successful and that's really what counts. Pulling them in close is much more fun than those long shots anyway.

You're right on the money about colder air being more dense and causing the pattern to spread due to its increased density. As it warms up, the air gets "thinner" and you see much better patterns.

The engineers at Olin/Winchester performed some very interesting studies years ago and documented the effects of temperature on shotgun patterns. It also effects penetration.

All my best this season.

Thanks,
Clark
"If he's out of range, it just means that he has another day and so do you."

air leak
 
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RE: Limited Patterning

Postby air leak » April 23rd, 2011, 1:22 am

Big10...with all due respect, you are making this out to be much more complicated than it needs to be. IMHO, guys spend too much time, money, and energy test patterning their shotguns. Turkeys couldn't care less how many pellets are in a 10 inch circle @ 40 yards, when said turkey is dead as a door nail, after being plowed with a load of # 4's.

A tight, dense pattern is all that I need to feel 'good to go'.

It is not my intent for this post to be a stone breaker, I'm just saying that trying to control every variable, such as temp, time and weather conditions, cleaning BETWEEN shots, is something that you don't need to be worrying about when you're trying to close the gap with a longbeard.

Call the bird to within 40, and when it's laying on the ground with glazed eyeballs, I promise you that how many pellets are in a 10 inch circle is irrelevant.

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kygobbler
 
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RE: Limited Patterning

Postby kygobbler » April 23rd, 2011, 3:50 pm

Amen, brother air leak. I firmly believe that it doesnt matter if you put 20 pellets in his head or 200 as long as he is dead thats all that matters. The main thing with any gun you shoot is that you have to have confidence in yourself and the gun. If you dont have confidence in that then you are not going to hit your target. When I bought my SX3 I put a Kicks Gobblin Thunder choke on it and I know that within 40 yds when I pull the trigger Im going to have a dead bird in my hands.
Is it turkey season yet?

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