Winchester ammo comparison

Guns, ammo, and more! What do you shoot, and why?
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kygobbler
 
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Winchester ammo comparison

Postby kygobbler » February 24th, 2014, 7:32 pm

I did some shooting with some of the Winchester ammo I had in stock just to see what they would do. After doing some shooting last week on the Long Beards I noticed they went to the left. So before I tried the turkey shells, I checked to see if my gun is shooting true or not. I found out that my gun is shooting to left and had me wondering how I ever killed a turkey in the last 5 years since I have been shooting this gun and choke. So I will be looking into getting some sights before the season starts.

I tried out and compared the Winchester Supremes, Double X, and Longbeards. All of these shots are 3.5" shells and from 25 yards.

Supreme.jpg
Supreme.jpg (81.24 KiB) Viewed 498 times


3" circle.....42 hits
10" circle....209 hits

DoubleX.jpg
DoubleX.jpg (80.27 KiB) Viewed 498 times


Longbeard #5.jpg
Longbeard #5.jpg (83.06 KiB) Viewed 498 times


3" circle......48 hits
10" circle.....267 hits

Longbeard #6.jpg
Longbeard #6.jpg (95.85 KiB) Viewed 498 times


3" circle.....85 hits
10" circle....321 hits

If you are wondering why I don't have a hit count on the Double X well its because I really didn't like the pattern. IMO, its too spread out compared to the others and couldn't determine where the center point was. Would it kill a turkey at 25 yards? Yes but I just don't like it.

When my Supreme stock runs out I believe I will go with the Longbeard #6. I really do like the pattern. Hopefully tomorrow I will be able to go to a place to try them out at longer distances.
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dewey
 
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Re: Winchester ammo comparison

Postby dewey » February 24th, 2014, 9:36 pm

Thanks for posting the results Bryan. Looks like a no brainer decision on your next ammo.

Did you shoot at any other distance or is that the next test?

Dewey
"Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indomitable will." --Mahatma Gandhi

"Never confuse a single defeat with a final defeat."--F. Scott Fitzgerald, American writer

       

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kygobbler
 
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Re: Winchester ammo comparison

Postby kygobbler » February 24th, 2014, 10:41 pm

dewey wrote:Thanks for posting the results Bryan. Looks like a no brainer decision on your next ammo.

Did you shoot at any other distance or is that the next test?

Dewey


That's what I'm going to do tomorrow. That fallen tree has my 40 yard range blocked. Guess I shouldn't have told the logger I had it cut up and ready to go and it wasn't going anywhere when he asked if I was in a hurry last week. :roll:

Here are some close ups of the shots. Now all of these were shot out of a Gobblin Thunder .670 choke. The circles in the pics are 3" and 10".

Supremes
supreme close up.jpg
supreme close up.jpg (73.41 KiB) Viewed 482 times


Long Beard #5
LB XR 5.jpg
LB XR 5.jpg (62.39 KiB) Viewed 486 times


Long Beard #6
LB XR 6.jpg
LB XR 6.jpg (92.12 KiB) Viewed 486 times


Sorry for the extra art work on the #6's, it was either have the little draw on it on type on the computer while I was trying to type. :D

Majority on the shot on the Longbeards are in a 8.5" circle.
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eddie234
 
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Re: Winchester ammo comparison

Postby eddie234 » February 25th, 2014, 10:48 am

I've seen a lot of good patterns with the longbeards. I'm really interested to see which co. will come out with a similar type shell now.
Twitter: @edvogler
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kygobbler
 
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Re: Winchester ammo comparison

Postby kygobbler » February 25th, 2014, 9:20 pm

I tested the Supremes #5, Long Beard #5, and Long Beard #6 at 40 yards today. Here are my results..

Supreme,
Supreme #5 @ 40 yds.jpg
Supreme #5 @ 40 yds.jpg (145.38 KiB) Viewed 453 times


Long Beard #5
Long Beard #5 @ 40yds.jpg
Long Beard #5 @ 40yds.jpg (144.51 KiB) Viewed 452 times


LB #5 @ 40 yards.jpg
LB #5 @ 40 yards.jpg (103.65 KiB) Viewed 453 times


3" circle.....18 hits
10" circle....159 hits

Long Beard #6
Long Beard #6 @ 40 yards.jpg
Long Beard #6 @ 40 yards.jpg (105.54 KiB) Viewed 453 times


LB #6 @ 40 YARDS.jpg
LB #6 @ 40 YARDS.jpg (168.26 KiB) Viewed 453 times


3" circle.....23 hits
10" circle....179 hits.

Now I have never been one to count how many hits were within a circle to determine what is a good shell and what isn't. That is due to the first time I went hunting I picked up a box of Supremes killed a turkey and stuck with them. I went by the old saying if it ain't broken why fix it.

After doing this comparison now Im wondering how I ever really killed all those turkeys. I guess it dealt more with luck than anything else after looking at my pattern at 40 yards. :)

As I stated this is my first time doing this so if you see that Im off as picking the center point of the shot let me know. All I did was take my tape measurer and searched where the most was in a 10" circle and picked the middle spot from there. For the ones with more experience with this, is that how you do it?
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dewey
 
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Re: Winchester ammo comparison

Postby dewey » February 25th, 2014, 11:26 pm

Those are some very impressive patterns at 40 yards. For those of you out there with more experience how do you determine your maximum range?

Number of pellets in 3" circle?
Number of pellets in 10" circle?
Energy and pellets and X yards?

Thanks for posting the results Bryan. I am looking forward to shooting these over Easter weekend.

Dewey
"Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indomitable will." --Mahatma Gandhi

"Never confuse a single defeat with a final defeat."--F. Scott Fitzgerald, American writer

       

icdedturkes
 
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Re: Winchester ammo comparison

Postby icdedturkes » February 26th, 2014, 8:45 am

dewey wrote:Those are some very impressive patterns at 40 yards. For those of you out there with more experience how do you determine your maximum range?

Number of pellets in 3" circle?
Number of pellets in 10" circle?
Energy and pellets and X yards?

Thanks for posting the results Bryan. I am looking forward to shooting these over Easter weekend.

Dewey

I think most on the internet subscribe to the 100 in a 10 inch circle criteria.. Where your gun fails to meet that you ahve over stepped your bounds.. But in reality where your gun barely places over 100 in a 10 inch circle you need to move it up 5 yards or so to figure in range guesstimation in the field if you do not hunt a range finder.

Energy and penetration was never a huge factor until now as most patterns would deteriorate before the penetration requirements ran out.. With these longbeards that is not exactly true..

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Treerooster
 
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Re: Winchester ammo comparison

Postby Treerooster » February 26th, 2014, 10:45 am

dewey wrote:Those are some very impressive patterns at 40 yards. For those of you out there with more experience how do you determine your maximum range?

Number of pellets in 3" circle?
Number of pellets in 10" circle?
Energy and pellets and X yards?

Thanks for posting the results Bryan. I am looking forward to shooting these over Easter weekend.

Dewey


I determine my max range by the number of hits in a turkeys vitals. The vitals being the brain and vertebrae on a turkey. I have a target that I print up of a life size turkey skull & vertebrae. I tape the skull target to big paper so I can see my whole pattern. You can get the target over at GSN in the shooting section here... http://www.grandslamnetwork.com/turkey-target-download/ I like to see 3 or 4 hits in the vitals as my minimum and back off 5 yards from my intended max range to eliminate range estimation errors. Weather, such as temp and wind can affect patterns. Most test their choke/load combos in nice weather and hunt in whatever. Wind probably has a greater affect on patterns but when you are at the edge of your range than a little bit of a worse pattern can mean a difference.

The 10 inch circle at 40 yards is nice as a standard to compare with other guys as to what they are getting, but that's as far as that goes for me. What you will see at max range, most likely, is a pattern larger than 10 inches. I sort of imagine that skull & vertebrae in different places in the pattern to see where that pattern's effectiveness ends. Then I now have a killing dia of that pattern.

If you want to get scientific, and I do, you can draw a circle around that killing dia (with pencil & string) and see how even the pattern is. Divide that up into 4ths and you can count the evenness of the pattern. If you look at kygobbler's patterns you will see on his LB #5 at 40yds there is a quadrant with only 14 hits, this would bother me. The LB #6 is much more even pattern and I would go with that.

Pellet energy must also be considered, especially with lead. I want the ability to kill a turkey at 40 yards. I need my pattern to be lethal to a min of 45 yards to include my 5 yard cushion. Any 4, 5 or 6 lead pellet shot about 1300 fps will be lethal to 45 yards and in fact I think 50 yards. Beyond that and you need to drop the 6 shot. However if you really want to shoot at 45 and beyond I would suggest HTL.

When I go to test a choke/shell combo I start out at 40 yards (my max range). When I get a combo that I think will work at 40 yard, I increase the range at 5 yard increments until I see where the pattern falls apart. When I have a combo I want to hunt with I like to see what the pattern does at shorter than 40 yard ranges. I just like to see how small the dia of the killing pattern is at short range. While I shoot these shorter ranges I am sighting in my gun/choke/load combo. I also shoot 2 times before each season to make sure everything is still good to go as I have sights on my gun.

THEN...after all that I buy as many of those shells as I can because I figure the manufacturer is gonna muck up the shell with different components or whatever. They just love to do that for some reason. :D
Last edited by Treerooster on February 26th, 2014, 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
As far as this turkey thing......I know enough...to know enough...that I don't know enough

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dewey
 
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Re: Winchester ammo comparison

Postby dewey » February 26th, 2014, 11:52 am

Treerooster wrote:THEN...after all that I buy as many of those shells as I can because I figure the manufacturer is gonna muck up the shell with different components or whatever. They just love to do that for some reason. :D


Once I get shooting over Easter and get an ammo figured out I plan to buy a case of ammo.

Thanks for the responses Treerooster and icedturkes!

I can easily follow the logic that both of you presented and they both make sense to me. I did some searching and came across an article in the Oklahoma Department of Wildlife and Conservation title "Turkey Loads: What Does it take and which one works" The author also combines what both of you touched on in your responses which is pellets in a 30" diameter circle and a minimum number of 3-4 skull or vertebrae hits.

Here is an excerpt from the article.

http://www.wildlifedepartment.com/hunti ... _loads.htm

WHAT DOES IT TAKE?

The following performance parameters were established by combining information from several sources including: first, a report of findings from an empirical research test run by Tom Roster titled “The Relative Effectiveness and Lethal Limitations of Three Lead and Three Steel Pellet Sizes for Taking Turkeys” (copyright 1990 by Tom Roster) which he ran under contract with Winchester Division/Olin Corporation.. Roster eventually used this information to create a horizontal line, concerning turkey lethality, in the current version of Cooperative North American Shotgun Education Program’s (CONSEP’s) Nontoxic Shot Lethality Table (copyright 2006 by Tom Roster). Second, ammunition manufacturer’s information and claims to tungsten-composite shot properties and performance. And, third, my anecdotal observations of in-the-field turkey load performance.

There are two basic performance parameters I’ll be concentrating on to evaluate the loads on their effectiveness. One is sufficient pattern density -- enough pellets in the pattern, at a given range, to ensure multiple hits on the target’s vital areas. For turkeys, the load will have to place a minimum of 210-230 pellets in a 30-inch diameter pattern with three to four skull and/or cervical vertebrae (S/CV) hits on a turkey head-and-neck target to be deemed effective. The other is ample pellet energy -- enough per-pellet energy to reliably penetrate the target’s vital areas at a given range. To ensure the pellets retain ample per-pellet turkey-S/CV-penetrating energy the pellets must not be used beyond their maximum effective ranges. My analysis of the maximum effective ranges for pellets comprised of different metal types is:


35 yards -- No. 6 lead shot;
45 yards -- No. 6 tungsten-composite shot (min. 12 g/cc), No. 5 lead shot or No. 4 steel shot;
55 yards -- No. 5 tungsten-composite shot (min. 12 g/cc), No. 4 lead shot or No. 3 steel shot.

Some may say that these maximum effective ranges are too stringent, but as previously mentioned, turkeys are big tough birds so let’s error on the safe side when it comes to pellet energy. Actually, you should reduce each of these maximum effective ranges by five yards to allow for in-the-field range estimation errors.

In addition, I’ll also calculate true pattern percentages for the load and choke combinations tested. While pattern percentages aren’t as important as the two previously mentioned performance parameters, they are indicators of load and choke efficiency so relatively high pattern percentages (good efficiency) will be something I’ll be looking for in our loads.

Ultimately, the goal will be to find loads that can exceed the established performance parameters by providing sufficient pattern density on the target, ample pellet energy for the distance, and show good efficiency by registering relatively high pattern percentages


I get that a LOT of very experienced turkey hunters and the NWTF suggest a 40 yard maximum range but if I can prove by shooting ammo XXX, with my choke and my gun then I will set that as my maximum range and that is why I asked the question of how others determine their maximum range.

Thanks for the responses.

Dewey
"Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indomitable will." --Mahatma Gandhi

"Never confuse a single defeat with a final defeat."--F. Scott Fitzgerald, American writer

       

icdedturkes
 
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Re: Winchester ammo comparison

Postby icdedturkes » February 26th, 2014, 12:36 pm

Or you could just pony up for a Lucky Weasel pattern analyzer which will give you your true turkey factor based on how many ways a turkey head can fit in a 15 inch circle. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdrtub40MFE

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