Flextone Thunder Chicken Decoy

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charlie elk
 
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Re: Flextone Thunder Chicken Decoy

Postby charlie elk » January 3rd, 2013, 10:05 am

stankyolgobbler wrote:Charlie you have to read "Illumination in the Flatwoods"!

I have read this and watched the PBS "documentary" a couple of times back in 06 when it first came out that was quite awhile ago so maybe I'll need to reread it. At the time I thought Joe Hutto possibly made a break through regarding turkey behavior...
However, after taking Hutto's observations into account, as I observe and study wild turkeys both during hunting season and out of season- I came to the conclusion that Joe Hutto's story is fun, entertaining and in some ways instructive but deeply flawed due his partial domestication of his turkey brood.
I think of memory as the ability to retain knowledge, then retrieve that knowledge and learn lessons from it. In my humble opinion turkeys like most birds, will become behaviorally imprinted which is very different from memory.

BTW, I love these discussions and all their branches they are great learning experiences. :geek:
later,
charlie
If you agree with me call it fact; if you disagree - call it my opinion.
After all - we are talking turkey.

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Treerooster
 
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Re: Flextone Thunder Chicken Decoy

Postby Treerooster » January 3rd, 2013, 11:06 am

This argument (I think) boils down to thet belief that wildlife can not learn. You have to have a memory to learn. To which I strongly disagree.

The fact that turkeys go to the same roost was brought up, and Charlie you did not address this. Except to say that imprinting was different than memory. I need much more detail than that or I would come away saying that if turkeys are imprinted on a roost site than memory (and learning) are the same as imprinting, at least in that respect.

Say you caught some week old poults and put them in a cage and raised them away from the hen. When they were about 6 months old you let them back in the wild were you caught them. What do you think their chances of survival would be? I'd say pretty slim because the hen was not there to raise/teach them things they need to know about that particular habitat. A hen is there to protect her brood for sure. But I also think those poults learn how to avoid danger and how to use the local habitat from the hen.

Its been said the only thing that can raise a wild turkey is a wild turkey hen, if you believe that is true then why? If a turkey has all it needs to know when born then any turkey should have all it needs to survive from the time it is hatched. As long as it makes it to the age where it can fly the hen is not needed. IF...turkeys can't learn that is.

Wild turkeys (and many other bird species and animals) that have never been hunted by man are easier to hunt than turkeys that have been heavily hunted. Why is that?

If birds can't learn, can mamals learn? Like dogs. If so, then where is the line between animals that can learn and animals that can't learn?
As far as this turkey thing......I know enough...to know enough...that I don't know enough

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stankyolgobbler
 
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Re: Flextone Thunder Chicken Decoy

Postby stankyolgobbler » January 3rd, 2013, 2:12 pm

charlie elk wrote:instructive but deeply flawed due his partial domestication of his turkey brood.



I somewhat agree with this. BUT, this particular brood was of PURE wild strain. We know that those particular birds are born with instinct but is there no room for learning or retaining information in order to help a turkey survive?

I thought this excerpt from last years season would be something cool to talk about.

*****Last year, I called in a group of 5 gobblers in on a firelane. They strolled up the firelane and then cut right out of gun range and worked up the other side of a thicket to my right where I couldn't see them. They hung up and finally gave up and were a considerable distance from me the next time I heard them. I went out the next day and heard them hammering on the limb accompanied by a group of hens. I called to them from the same general area and was able to bring them close, but not close enough. They stayed henned up and I never saw them through the trees. 3 Days later, I took a buddy of mine out with me to the same property with the same birds on my mind. We walked up the firelane so we wouldn't make much noise and came to where we were adjacent from their roosting area. We waited, and sure enough they gobbled where I figured they would. We set up on the lane facing their direction in the SAME general area I had called to the birds just days before and 2 days in a row. They hit the ground and gobbled, I called softly, they gobbled again and moments later we could hear drumming through the flat in front of us. I gave a few scratches in the leaves and the birds started coming into view single file with the strutter in the rear. They came into gun range and the strutter put on a show while the walkers stood at attention. We both picked a bird out...counted down...and shot. My bird hit the dirt and my buddy missed! Throughout the season, we would come back to that area and listen and see if I could strike one up and no birds gobbled in that area where historically birds have roosted time and time again.....I knew there were 4 longbearded gobblers at large and still, they vacated their roosting area coincidentally after we had fired to shots in that area.

Thoughts or opinions on this situation?
-Sage Morris

I like 'em close.....I mean REAL close.

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WillowRidgeCalls
 
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Re: Flextone Thunder Chicken Decoy

Postby WillowRidgeCalls » January 3rd, 2013, 5:00 pm

Chances are your buddy didn't miss clean? If the bird he shot at was the strutter or dominant bird in the group, that bird left that area and took the rest with him. The other birds may be back there this spring, because there was something there those birds liked? That bird he shot at probably won't come back there, he'll roost someplace else without his friends.
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ticklishtompro
 
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Re: Flextone Thunder Chicken Decoy

Postby ticklishtompro » January 3rd, 2013, 7:26 pm

This has turned into an interesting disscussion, and I must throw something into it. I used to breed and raise quail. I did research and found if you released them at 6 weeks of age, that was their best chance of survival in the wild. Even though they came from captive lines they still had that wild instinct in them. If you kept them much longer than they didn't survive well at all.
We released many quail and the ones we kept to long didn't usually last long, but the ones released at that 6 week range did well.

So is it memory or instinct? A great question that we will never know for sure, but there is no doubt that they do retain some kind of memory that keeps them away from danger. I have seen many turkeys change their daily habits after being shot at or spooked too many times from one spot. I think it is more of the instinct from danger, they can't reason out why but they know something in that spot wasn't right. Survival instinct you might call it.

I love the disscussion, keep the different points coming!!

Randy
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charlie elk
 
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Re: Flextone Thunder Chicken Decoy

Postby charlie elk » January 4th, 2013, 10:46 am

stankyolgobbler wrote:charlie elk wrote:
instructive but deeply flawed due his partial domestication of his turkey brood.

I somewhat agree with this. BUT, this particular brood was of PURE wild strain. We know that those particular birds are born with instinct but is there no room for learning or retaining information in order to help a turkey survive?

Yes Hutto's turkeys were hatched from wild turkey eggs so the turkeys were in fact wild in breed. What I mean by "domestication" is his constant interaction with the brood domesticated their behavior. Over the years I have been around numerous species of wildlife that for whatever reason were raised by or nurtured by human intervention. In every case the wild creature lost its "wildness" to varying degrees.
In the Hutto story he was clearly a turkey participant rather than an outside observer of turkey behavior. In my opinion as a participant he most likely altered at least some of the wild behaviors.

stankyolgobbler wrote:My bird hit the dirt and my buddy missed! Throughout the season, we would come back to that area and listen and see if I could strike one up and no birds gobbled in that area where historically birds have roosted time and time again.....I knew there were 4 longbearded gobblers at large and still, they vacated their roosting area coincidentally after we had fired to shots in that area.
Thoughts or opinions on this situation?

Many things could explain this, here are couple more...
The shots scared the turkeys out of the immediate area and wherever they flew to they found that area suitable for their needs. With no memory of the previous roosting area - they did not come back.
One of you killed the dominate tom and the satellite toms found another dominate tom somewhere else to be subservient with. Even though your buddy did not kill his target on the spot that does not mean the tom did not die later. A few stray pellets penetrating the vitals of a turkey can cause it to die further away. But I trust you walked the area it flew to in order to double check this possibility.
Did you call to those toms after the shot? Many times I do this and more often than not the toms return to area for a replay or they have returned to continue living in the same area.
later,
charlie
If you agree with me call it fact; if you disagree - call it my opinion.
After all - we are talking turkey.

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Re: Flextone Thunder Chicken Decoy

Postby charlie elk » January 4th, 2013, 11:32 am

Treerooster wrote:This argument (I think) boils down to thet belief that wildlife can not learn. You have to have a memory to learn. To which I strongly disagree.

Perhaps, that is one take and perhaps in the end we will agree to disagree as I do not think anyone knows for sure. With many of the terms we throw around it depends on how each perceives and defines them. (learn, memory, knowledge, etc.) Keep in mind a simple 3 letter word like RUN has 832 different definitions.

Treerooster wrote:The fact that turkeys go to the same roost was brought up, and Charlie you did not address this. Except to say that imprinting was different than memory. I need much more detail than that or I would come away saying that if turkeys are imprinted on a roost site than memory (and learning) are the same as imprinting, at least in that respect.

Imprinting is different than memory. Memory involves the process of acquiring, storing and recalling information to form a knowledge base.
Imprinting is phase sensitive learning to establish a behavior pattern.
I think imprinting best describes the wild turkey "learning" process.
In the rare situation where turkeys use the same roost it is a matter of where the turkey was come roost time. At least this is the case in my area where we have suitable roost trees virtually everywhere. In contrast, in many western plains areas the turkeys don't have all these roosting options so they generally use the same trees or spend the night on the ground.

Treerooster wrote:Say you caught some week old poults and put them in a cage and raised them away from the hen. When they were about 6 months old you let them back in the wild were you caught them. What do you think their chances of survival would be? I'd say pretty slim because the hen was not there to raise/teach them things they need to know about that particular habitat. A hen is there to protect her brood for sure. But I also think those poults learn how to avoid danger and how to use the local habitat from the hen.

I like ticklishpros take on this with his quail example.
Also there were 2 studies done here in WI back in the 80's that concluded if a brood hen were to die the brood most likely survives without her. All of these studies are on Google Scholar.

Treerooster wrote:Its been said the only thing that can raise a wild turkey is a wild turkey hen, if you believe that is true then why? If a turkey has all it needs to know when born then any turkey should have all it needs to survive from the time it is hatched. As long as it makes it to the age where it can fly the hen is not needed. IF...turkeys can't learn that is.

I do not believe this, Joe Hutto raised a turkey brood and he could not fly or roost.

Treerooster wrote:Wild turkeys (and many other bird species and animals) that have never been hunted by man are easier to hunt than turkeys that have been heavily hunted. Why is that?

Because of phase sensitive learning to establish a behavior pattern, better known as imprinting.

Treerooster wrote:If birds can't learn, can mamals learn? Like dogs. If so, then where is the line between animals that can learn and animals that can't learn?

They can all "learn" to a point it is just how and how deep that learning is accomplished. Most birds I think learn by imprint, the exception is the crow who not only learns by imprint but seems to have a memory that is used as a knowledge base to perform some rudimentary reasoning. Which I think is an explanation as to why they collect items to fashion and use as simple tools.
Canines not only imprint but they remember and reason things out this includes many domestic dogs and all the wild canines I have hunted. Which is why in my older age I personally find if very difficult to kill fox, coyotes, wolves and crows.
later,
charlie
If you agree with me call it fact; if you disagree - call it my opinion.
After all - we are talking turkey.

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