Time to really fall hunt?

[WillowRidgeCalls]

If I'm given the choice between an older bird or a young one for table fare in the fall, the young one is going home every time. There isn't a better tasting bird out there. Giving the winter lost of birds here in WI. your better off taking a yearly bird.

Gary, I've eatin a few young grouse and there really isn't much differance between a young bird and an older one, like there is with turkeys.

[Treerooster]

FWIW
When I got that little poult (is it a hen or a jake?...I really don't know) I set up on a roosted flock and it was the 1st week of Sept. There were 3 adult hens in the flock and 20 to 25 poults...all very young poults as it was a late hatch that year for some reason.

I was pretty close the the flock and when I called several came over. There were several poults in range and 2 adult hens. One adult hen was standing within just a few feet of the poult I shot. I chose the poult for 3 reasons; culinary, didn't want to shoot momma with so many young poults to raise, and why shoot a proven breeder.


As far as shooting hens in the fall...I base my decision on biology not hunter BS. The recent T&TH mag has an article by Jim Spencer about dumb turkey laws and in it he mentions how we would be better off listening to game biologists that use science in their decision making rather than politicians and hunters that think they know more than a trained proffesional. I agree.

Turkeys are a galliform. They reproduce like other galliforms. I don't feel I am hurting the population when I shoot a hen ruffed grouse, or quail, or sharptail...etc. Why would turkeys be so different? Given the right conditions for nesting and brooding, galliform populations can increase dramatically. And I have experienced this with the birds I hunt a lot; ruffed grouse, quail, pheasant and turkey.

I do find it odd that the only galliform (other than a couple of states that only allow gobblers in the fall) I can think of where females are illegal in fall is the pheasant. This is probably based on tradition and not biology.

[Gopherlongbeards]

I completely agree treerooster. a lot of myth, superstition, and old wives tales sure seem to creep into game management from the social/political side of things. When i lived in SD I was always confused by the noon and 10 AM opening times for pheasant hunting (noon the first two weeks, 10 AM the rest of the season). It never made sense to me seeing as a bird killed at 10 AM is just as dead as one killed at 8 in the morning, and the surrounding states ND, IA etc. don't have any similar restrictions. The story I heard, and I believe it, is that its a purely social regulation. Bar and restaurant owners want out of state hunters up late spending money in their establishments. That's more likely to happen when they don't have to be up at sunrise to shoot their roosters.

[turkey junky]

im pretty sure SD changed there times gopher? its now 12:00 PM noon untill daylite saveings time then its 11:00 AM the rest of the season??? that goes along with your the bar & resturant owners want $$$ from out of staters... IA is now 10:00 am or 11:00 am till the last i think 3-4 hours of daylite basicly you can not shoot pheasants in IA at dusk or the last few hours of shooting lite... they did this in part to help boost IA pheasants witch are bascily not doing well at all basicly all gone... ND opens from a half hour B4 day lite till sun set they rock!!!

they late starting times in these states basicly gives the birds a chance to get out of there roost cover IE CRP grasses & lite cover & gives them a chance to get to feed & pick grit B4 hunters start blasting away once pheasants feed & pick grit they tend to head for heavyier cover in the surrounding areas thats when we get to hit the fields to i guess give the pheasants a sporting chance...

in states like ND & KS they dont have as many pheasants as SD but they routinely harvest 2nd-3rd in harvest & a major part in that is that they can start hunting pheasant at sunrise or a half hour B4 sun rise & many guys just ambush the birds in there roost cover plane & simple the start times make sence to me??? if SD let guys hunt from sunrise to sun set they would have there limit of birds mity fast & if everybody goes home early how can the state & or local towns get $$$ from the out of staters???

in many areas of upper WI & northern MN there are turkeys just starting to take hold & in these areas there is now fall seasons & OTC tags so my thoughts are if i pass on a jenny this yr she may have babys & reproduce & help the turkey population... i have 2-3 friends that are wildlife biologist & i asked them a few times hay is this BS to pass a jenny in the fall??? & they said of course not its never a bad thing to pass on a female of any sub species unless in like a deer management area with to many does ETC. but they said if you pass on the hen that that could only help the future of the population??? its all personal choice but i dont agree with every wild life biologist & there feelings because i have seen state game agencys flub things up quit a bit...

[turkey junky]

also in make n friends with a biologist last season while out prairie chicken hunting last season that is north americas leading prairie grouse biologist we started talking about prairie grouse & i had talked to 2 seperate MN paid wildlife biologist & upland game bird specialist prior tomeeting this man & asked about the possibilty of seeing & or harvesting sharptails while on my prairie chicken hunt & or hybrids of the 2 species & both of them biologist paid by the state of MN maid me sound like a dumb ass & said they have never herd or seen such a thing in the area i was hunting so when i herd the leading prairie grouse biologist say he had 2-3 radio colloerd sharptails in the area & there was for sure hybrids around i asked him why the MN biologist hadnt herd of them or why they lied to me??? he said best i can tell you is they think they know every buddy & that they get paid to do so??? so i have to kinda take there info for what its worth but now when i talk to upland game bird biologist in any state i mention my friends name i met in MN on a prairie chicken hunt & they give me a number to another biologist who really knows whats going on on the ground in a given area so some biologist are full of B/S also treerooster....

id have to guess your baby turkey looked like a hen??? i have seen & raised baby turkeys B4 & the baby hens looked similar but for awhile they all kinda look the same so??? as long as your wife didnt poke jokes for killing a baby & it tatsed great on the table thats all that counts man...

ill stay with the B/S logic of more hens in a give n area makes more babys in that area that works for me

[charlie elk]

Hey treerooster I keep drooling over your turkey and have been thinking--
How about when we shoot some fall turkeys you do the cooking?

[Treerooster]

Hey treerooster I keep drooling over your turkey and have been thinking--
How about when we shoot some fall turkeys you do the cooking?

I had some lunch that you made and I know how good a cook YOU are.

If we team up it will be a can't miss deal and a great meal I am sure!!!

We just need to find us one of them late-hatch broods...eh?

[eggshell]

well I'll weigh in I guess. Some of you may know my background and some not. I have a degree in wildlife mngt and had a long career (31 years) in state Fisheries Management. As a Fisheries manager I often shared the same space with other biologist managing game birds and other game animals. I will confess that there were some that made you scratch your head and think, "what planet is this guy on". However, the vast majority work hard at gathering scientific fact and genuinely want to do what is best for the animals and sportsmen alike. Do such things as tradition and social impressions influence the science at time, yes it does. what the field biologist often runs into on regulations are high lever administrators who owe their jobs to political and social pun-dents and thus are often forced to make what seems like irrational laws. After all, without the political support the really valuable laws can't be passed. As sad as it is most wildlife agencies authority is ultimately controlled by politicians, and they do at time supersede scientific fact. That is why it is important to know what your state legislatures and governors support and vote accordingly. In most cases the science prevails, but where there is money involved science may get pushed aside, like when business' want hunter's dollars and those dollars generate sales tax, which wildlife agencies get little or none of. So please be sympathetic towards your paid profession wildlife people, they are doing the very best they can in difficult times. It is not always their fault, yet sometimes they do goof up, just like anyone else on their job. For the most part they are hunters and fishermen and they work very hard at doing what is best for everyone. Science is often a trial and error approach and some things have to be tried to see what works. When working in the natural environment that means waiting a few years for your results, it is not a field that gives fast answers.

As for sportsmen's opinions, they are welcome as they are the one on the ground and a vast source of information. Literally millions of hours observing the game being managed are accumulated by sportsmen. That is a data set most scientist in other fields would envy and impossible to hire enough people to acquire. So when wildlife agencies ask you to participate in a survey or check your game, it is for data more than to enforce laws. If you visit agencies or their websites they are always looking for information. Outdoor enthusiast often let their emotions drive their concerns and opinions. Often they are looking at a small picture. I have participated in many forums with sportsmen's groups and listened to many many concerns. I can tell you perhaps 20% of the people voicing concerns actually bring solid facts to the table. Mostly they speak from emotion and limited personal experience from a small data set. Yes a particular township or lake may have a problem at this point and time, but your biologist is looking at the big picture. Can your problem be an indicator of something bigger or just a local fluctuation that will in time fix it's self, that is a hard question most of the time. My suggestion is if you want to be taken seriously put some thought and data in your concerns when you approach professionals and they will respect you.

I'll give you and example. We had a local fishing club that fished a specific lake and kept good catch records and recorded observations. when they came to us with data we took them seriously and initiated a research project to investigate. We discovered an unknown pollution source and worked with local politicians to solve it. several years later the lake is again a thriving fishery. It was the sportsman, who spent countless hours on the lake, who saw the problem first, but they were taken seriously because they came with well thought out concerns and facts. So if you want to be listened to don't just bitch about, "I did not jump one grouse today, they're all gone" or I never heard but three gobblers all spring, we need to quit killing hens in the fall", keep some diaries and come with well thought out facts. Believe me as a formal state Wildlife Agency employee, we get called frigging idiots and bitched at everyday of our careers and yes over time we learn to tune it out and sometimes we tune out well meaning people. I can personally tell you it got my attention when some one said, I appreciate what you guys do and that you work hard, but I do have some concerns". If you walked in my office and started with, "when are you guys gonna do something about lake yada, I went into the defensive rhetoric mode and when the bitcher left so did my concern. I probably deserve some criticism for that, but I would guess most of you react similar when your subjected to repeated accusations and criticisms of your job performance, especially when you are confident they are unfounded.

[Gopherlongbeards]

Great post!

Always nice to get a view from the inside on issues like this.

[turkey junky]

yes sir eggshell you hit the nail on the head...

on my MN prairie chicken hunt when i met the very knowlegable prairie grouse biologist we exchanged info & i said i would give him a call if we bagged any birds & he said he would like to check the birds for age wight sex ETC. so at the end of our hunt we had 9 chickens for him to investagate & oh boy was he thrilled i thought he mite be pissed off or bummed we killed 9 birds but he said he if you hunters were not out here buying license & haveing fun these birds would be dead... our group told him the same thing in return & thanked him ocordingly... he was more then happy to teach us to sex & age the birds for future hunts & even asked if he could take our picture so we said heck yes & thanks much!!! we maid friends & now when i mention his name to other biologist they do know of him & then i get good info & or directed to a on the ground in the filed biologist...

out of the about 30-40 wildlife biologist & or upland game or turkey biologist in many states & for many WMAs or NTL grasslands i can honestly say i have only had a prob with 7-8 of them they just had that im smarter then you & your wasteing my time with stupid questions & i always start of with hi sir how are ya & do you by chance have the time to chat with me about whatever im calling about in your state & region... i mean some of these guys sigh when you ask them the question & act like your intrudeing?

1 example from last yr called a WY state upland game bird biologist i threw out his name & number or i would list his name as a guy never to call for help... i asked about turkey numbers in a area & when i said the name of the area & MTNs/hills he said there is no turkeys in them hills??? i had just read a few on-line articles & even looked at a few guides web page in the area to see if they offer turkey hunts they did & said there is plenty of birds in these hills??? lol im serious!!! so when i said another near by town/area he said again there is no turkeys in them hills??? i then said ok sir can you tell me wear the turkeys would be in that region he said they are all on the creeks & river bottums & i sadi ok witch creeks & what areas of the WY countyside should i start my hunt or even to look he then said well them areas you mentioned B4 hold the most turkeys but there all on private lands??? he just mentioned prior there were no turkeys in the area he then said when i asked so there is turkeys around BLANK town? he said yes there is but i asked if there were turkeys in the hills??? & laughed??? & that i have to understand that he talks to 100s of hunters each spring & he cant send them all to the same spot??? i mean come on i had the town write & everything but he was addamit at 1st that there was no turkeys in the area??? not cool at all...