Fall Free-For-All

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charlie elk
 
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Fall Free-For-All

Postby charlie elk » August 7th, 2012, 2:25 pm

Tom Carpenter's article "Fall Free-For-All" in T&TH fall 2012 has a few points that have given me a case of heartburn that will not go away.

He is correct there are 2 rule books- the legal and the unwritten. The "unwritten" book contains the ethics we as hunters have kind of agreed to over the years in order to conduct hunts safely, roughly defines fair chase and is enforced via peer pressure rather than by law.
Mr. Carpenter writes:
"I'm not much for rule books. And to be honest, there's nothing wrong with the second kind of rule book, if those traditional methods of hunting make you happy and produce satisfactory results."

Does this mean if you are having trouble bagging a turkey anything goes so long as there is no law to stop you?
I hope not.

One of the seven tactics he promotes raises an eyebrow; a “Turkey Push” really?

Two others, caused the serious heartburn: “Walk ‘Em Up” and “Dog It” according to the description you hunt turkeys like pheasants. In the first the hunter attempts to flush and in the second a dog is used both with instructions to shoot fast at flushing turkeys. This is a joke, right? These tactics could result in accidental shootings and wounded birds. Not to mention the loss of prestige and goodwill turkey hunters have spent generations building.

About 5 years in Eau Galle, WI a fellow was hunting fall turkeys using a walk em up method, he shot 2 teenage boys in the face who were setup according to the second rule book. One kid lost his sight the other was “lucky” and only lost one eye.
The author advises safety;
“wear a blaze-orange hat when on-the-move techniques”
OK good for the guy moving what about the hunter setup per second rule book?

He continues the safety advice-
“Take special care at the moment of truth… especially moving ones, to be sure that what you are shooting is actually a turkey. Double-check while lining up your sights and before pulling the trigger-and then triple check.”

When I taught hunter education we taught you do all this checking before you line up your sights.

My concern for the loss of goodwill; If it becomes common practice for dogs to be used as they are in pheasant hunting there will likely be a backlash to outlaw turkey dogs. When WI was debating legalizing the turkey dog this was one of the one concerns brought up. Turkey doggers assured that no hunter would use them in this manner.

The over all message I took away from “Fall Free-For-All” is; anything goes if you can’t bag the turkey for Thanksgiving.
Part of the fall deal is accepting it is harder, much harder than spring hunting but like spring hunting there is that second rule book that I do not think wise to throw out in order to just get your bird. If you feel that much pressure go buy one at the grocery store, they are about the same price as turkey license.
Last edited by charlie elk on August 7th, 2012, 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
later,
charlie
If you agree with me call it fact; if you disagree - call it my opinion.
After all - we are talking turkey.

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turkey junky
 
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Re: Fall Free-For-All

Postby turkey junky » August 7th, 2012, 4:20 pm

no need to disrespect charlie for posting his thoughts & feelings on a on-line forum you just did the same thing turkeycomander??? charlie wasnt claiming to be a expert just a concerned fall turkey dogger...???

i my self did not go buy the fall issue as i really dont care 1 ioda about fall turkey hunting but 1 issue that charlie did arise was the fact that fall turkeys are much harder then spring turkeys... cant argue that fact as i have never felt the need to hunt fall turkeys my-self actually nobody in my family full of turkey hunters have ever went fall turkey hunting we mostly chase woodland grouse prairie grouse & waterfowl in the fall
my family are spring time gobbler hunters & we have some bad thoughts/feelings on shooting hens in the fall call me simple... lol i understand we dont have to harvest a hen & we can hold out for a gobbler or jake so...
but in many areas from MN to WI i have been in the deer or upland game woods or even in pheasant country & i have gotten awfull close to flocks of fall turkeys & i did not see any real reasons or things that would of kept me from makeing a end around & start calling & hope a turkey would work my way ive snuck up on turkeys in the WI deer woods B4 as they were so noisey all morning that i had to go take a peek at them...

i think i will now have to go out in the fall & smash a turkey just to prove to my-self that i can do it & that its just not as imposible as many fall guys make it out to be??? i will have to hold out for a jake or gobbler so if i eat tag soup thats fine as i dont kill the ladys if legal or not...

to be honest i could think of a few more things finer then shooting a turkey on the wing like A PRAIRIE CHICKEN,SHARPTAIL GROUSE, SAGE GROUSE,GREEN WING TEAL,RING NECK PHEASANTS,GRAY PARTRIDGE
i mean fall turkeys are not small targets & they dont fly extremely fast on the wing from the start so id say driveing or flushing turkeys to take flight then shooting them is not that much of a feat they do it in new zeland all the time it was a really lame hunt to watch on TV... i have shot gobblers on the wing after a missed shot on the ground put them in the air it really wasnt all that special...???

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turkey junky
 
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Re: Fall Free-For-All

Postby turkey junky » August 7th, 2012, 4:34 pm

i agree with the on-line forum guys not being expert as im not a expert by any stretch of the imagineation but as far as the its un-ethical to inteninally shoot a turkey at more then 40 yrds thats B/S man come on next thing that comes after that is its un-ethical to shoot a turkey you didnt call all the way to your set up & so fourth... i dont like to shoot past 50 yrds more like 40-45 but i have a 60 yrd gun on a paper targets!!! but im not going to put my foot in my mouth & call it un-ethical to shoot past what ever distance.... thats just 1 mans opinion & you know how opinions go there like A-HOLEs everybody has 1 & they all stink... i mean a 10 ga can reach out past 40 no probs my old man used to use a 10 ga with fixed full choke & it work well beyond 60... there is that old school mentality of you need them with in 25-30 yrds to be a real turkey hunter & i have done that but my gun has a supper tite pattern so 30-35 is perfect for my gun 40-45 is just deadly & if i wanted to hold my shots to 25-35 yrds id use a 20 ga...

charlie elk
 
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Re: Fall Free-For-All

Postby charlie elk » August 7th, 2012, 5:16 pm

turkey junky wrote:no need to disrespect charlie for posting his thoughts & feelings on a on-line forum you just did the same thing turkeycomander??? charlie wasnt claiming to be a expert just a concerned fall turkey dogger...???

Not to worry I feel no disrespect. I do not claim to be an expert; ex means past, pert is a tiny drip, definitely does not describe me. ;) A rousing debate is healthy.

TurkeyComander wrote:Fall hunting is really not harder than spring.

If that is true- How do you account for the much lower hunter success rate in the fall?

TurkeyComander wrote:I agree with the late Dwain Bland...."there is nothing finer than to shoot a turkey on the wing".

As you can imagine I could not disagree more. If you shoot a turkey on the wing in the head you are an exceptional wingshot, but not an exceptional turkey hunter.

TurkeyComander wrote:As far as the article I'd have to read the entire article to be sure I didn't take anything he wrote out of context.

I'd expect nothing less from anybody, I don't usually write negative comments on magazine articles but this one in my opinion crossed too many lines to ignore. I read it a half dozen times and could not come to any other interpretation. Perhaps there is something I missed and someone here will straighten me out.
later,
charlie
If you agree with me call it fact; if you disagree - call it my opinion.
After all - we are talking turkey.

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Gopherlongbeards
 
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Re: Fall Free-For-All

Postby Gopherlongbeards » August 7th, 2012, 5:53 pm

After reading the article in question I will also say I would not personally practice some of the suggested methods of taking fall turkeys. If however, it is legal to flush and shoot fall turkeys the way one would a pheasant, then who am I to judge someone who enjoys this method of take? My biggest concern with the method, and the strongest argument against its legality are in my mind the safety issues.

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eggshell
 
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Re: Fall Free-For-All

Postby eggshell » August 7th, 2012, 11:31 pm

I am deleting all my post on this topic. I feel I have let myself be sucked into a discussion that first is not healthy for the sport and second may lead to the degrading of this fine forum and third released the irrational idiot inside me....my apologies to the forum
Last edited by eggshell on August 9th, 2012, 12:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
Bust em, Bag em, thank HIm

charlie elk
 
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Re: Fall Free-For-All

Postby charlie elk » August 8th, 2012, 1:50 pm

TurkeyComander wrote:I don't know where you get your success rates numbers from but people that fall hunt where there's turkeys I don't think have a low success rate problem in this day and time.

WDNR reports fall 3 1/2 month season success rate 10%. Spring 7 day season success rate 23%

eggshell I am very glad you survived the shooting accident.
eggshell wrote:You see there are no absolutes, that fit all situations.

I agree and do you think this is why there is that second rule book? The law rule book is inflexible. And then that leads us to defining exactly what is a flying turkey?
eggshell wrote:Shooting a flying turkey should not be that different than shooting a dove, high enough to be above any human.

Clearly cruising like a dove is flying; so do we accept pass shooting turkeys? Perhaps a better comparison is a low level flying goose, many pass shoot geese but they use much larger shot than we do for turkeys. If we accept pass shooting flying turkeys. Should we change the shot size laws to include #2?

If we are to pass shoot turkeys (as you seem to suggest) or flush and shoot them like pheasants (as the article's author suggests) are we then taking away the nobility; that essence that makes turkeys special? In other words is the turkey destine to become just another game bird to be flushed and killed?

If a hunter calls in a bird or birds that spooks, starts to spread wings and liftoff with neck extended...
In my view, not yet a "flying" turkey. But with no absolutes; how high before it is flying? I do not know.

eggshell wrote:Charlie, I know some who would be offended by your picture with what five birds laying in front of you, but I say hey that would be a blast if it was legal to kill that many at once.
please don't take offense, I'm just another opinion. Isn't America great

A good point I had not thought of. The picture is of 3 fall gobblers, each called in separately over several hours & shot while their feet were firmly on the ground. Each is tagged, the only limit on turkeys in WI is the number of permits you have in your pocket, spring or fall. I have posted the story of this hunt on this site a couple of times, I think. But without the background behind the pic, you are right some might be offended. The picture will be changed. Thanks.
Nothing you or anyone else wrote offends me, I believe discussions like these are healthy and help flesh out the "second rulebook." So let's keep talking, fall is still a long way off.
later,
charlie
If you agree with me call it fact; if you disagree - call it my opinion.
After all - we are talking turkey.

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eggshell
 
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Re: Fall Free-For-All

Postby eggshell » August 8th, 2012, 3:34 pm

I am deleting all my post on this topic. I feel I have let myself be sucked into a discussion that first is not healthy for the sport and second may lead to the degrading of this fine forum and third released the irrational idiot inside me....my apologies to the forum

I would ask that anyone quoting me remove my quotes, but that is only a request. They are part of your voiced opinion and you have every right to leave them. Be well and be blessed in your turkey hunting adventures
Last edited by eggshell on August 9th, 2012, 1:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
Bust em, Bag em, thank HIm

charlie elk
 
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Re: Fall Free-For-All

Postby charlie elk » August 8th, 2012, 4:42 pm

eggshell wrote:Unless we all go to New Zealand for a drive I doubt we'll be pass shooting turkeys. Oh by the way I'd go do that if i had the chance, so i suppose I'm an unethical slob turkey hunter

No you do not need to go to New Zealand turkey drives are legal here, guys who do them here call them pushes. There is no law against pass shooting turkeys either. All of this is left to the individual hunter's discretion which I prefer. BTW, I have not referred to you or anyone unethical or a slob hunter.

eggshell wrote:I guess that i can accept that I will never be allowed in the Charlie elk Turkey hunting club.

We've never discussed your admittance, so president charlie has not made a ruling... :lol:

eggshell wrote:My fear in all this discussion is that we find ourselves imposing our own laws on others.

I am not imposing my laws on anyone, just trying to express how I view the turkey as an outstanding bird. Anyone can accept or reject my notions as I can theirs. Unless, hunters lobby to pass their preferences into law.

See my signature line for my disclaimer. :)
later,
charlie
If you agree with me call it fact; if you disagree - call it my opinion.
After all - we are talking turkey.

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ylpnfol
 
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Re: Fall Free-For-All

Postby ylpnfol » August 15th, 2012, 8:19 am

i just read this article, and post, my take is even tho i don't agree w/ several of the methods for killing a bird, mainly for safety reasons, who am i to tell someone that they can't hunt a certain way, if i don't want to do it that way i won't, my individual choice....we don't need to chastise someone for doing things differently than we do, we need to promote hunting, period.....there are too many anti's out there that need ammunition [ pardon the pun ] to eradicate hunting altogether.....
David

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