.410 pattern

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fallhunt
 
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Re: .410 pattern

Postby fallhunt » June 19th, 2012, 12:49 pm

The gun has a full choke that is not changable.

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allaboutshooting
 
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Re: .410 pattern

Postby allaboutshooting » June 20th, 2012, 8:23 am

fallhunt wrote:The gun has a full choke that is not changable.


When I did my work on the various .410 self-defense loads through the Taurus Public Defender Ultra-Lite, I used a single shot .410 with a fixed full choke as a control, to see how much if any difference I saw in patterns. The SD shot loads were developed to achieve their maximum muzzle velocity out of the very short barrel of the Taurus guns. I was very impressed with the patterns from both that gun and from the longer full choked gun.

I can imagine that if you keep shots at 25 yards or less, as you plan, that it could be an effective turkey load. I mentioned previously that a friend has 5 lbs. of #7 Heavyweight shot and is looking for someone to load that shot in some .410 hulls for his son to use this fall for turkeys.

What I've found is that there are some folks loading TSS in #8 and #9 in .410 hulls and using it in states that allow shot that size but I've not run across anyone who has any experience with the #7 shot, lead or Heavyweight, in those shells. There are some who are loading 28 gauge however.

Thanks,
Clark
"If he's out of range, it just means that he has another day and so do you."

charlie elk
 
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Re: .410 pattern

Postby charlie elk » June 20th, 2012, 9:34 am

These threads on the 410 got me curious about patterns and penetration. So I patterned my 410 at 20 yds using 1/8" sheathing:
with 3" #6 lead- good pattern unless you count only the pellets which passed through, then on average there were only 3-4 pellets in the kill zone. 7.5 shot had a much better pattern but fewer penetrating pellets. #4 open pattern with nearly all pellets passing thru. At 10 yds all pellets in all the loads passed thru the boards.
I can not find any HD loads in 410 to test. Perhaps the HD shot would penetrate better, it does in my 20 & 12. Just for the heck of it I tried the 20 in comparison to the 410 and the 20 clearly delivered a lethal pattern with excellent penetration. Both guns used lead and full chokes.
Bottom line my 410 would not be a reliably lethal turkey gun.
later,
charlie
If you agree with me call it fact; if you disagree - call it my opinion.
After all - we are talking turkey.

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allaboutshooting
 
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Re: .410 pattern

Postby allaboutshooting » June 20th, 2012, 2:01 pm

charlie elk wrote:These threads on the 410 got me curious about patterns and penetration. So I patterned my 410 at 20 yds using 1/8" sheathing:
with 3" #6 lead- good pattern unless you count only the pellets which passed through, then on average there were only 3-4 pellets in the kill zone. 7.5 shot had a much better pattern but fewer penetrating pellets. #4 open pattern with nearly all pellets passing thru. At 10 yds all pellets in all the loads passed thru the boards.
I can not find any HD loads in 410 to test. Perhaps the HD shot would penetrate better, it does in my 20 & 12. Just for the heck of it I tried the 20 in comparison to the 410 and the 20 clearly delivered a lethal pattern with excellent penetration. Both guns used lead and full chokes.
Bottom line my 410 would not be a reliably lethal turkey gun.


You have of course outlined the differences in patterns and penetration. For some of my work with the .410 SD loads, I used microcrystalline wax that was equivalent to ballistic gelatin but more stable and could be used in temperatures up to 70 degrees. I used the FBI standards for penetration on the wax, wall board and "dressed" wax. I also used the standard of 21' for my studies, even though I shot at distances as far as 60' or 20 yards.

I shot loads from Winchester, Remington and Federal. The only load that used shot only was the one from Federal. It's a 2.5" shell with 7/16 oz. of #4 copper plated lead shot with a 1200 f.p.s. muzzle velocity, from a 3" barreled gun.

Image

Image

In most instances, I had through and through penetration in 3" of microcrystalline wax but at times, I had several pellets that did not make it all the way through and were bulging the wax on the back side.

Image

The patterns did have some holes but again, these shells only contained 7/16 oz. of #4 shot and were meant for very close range SD use and not for hunting turkeys.

Thanks,
Clark
Last edited by allaboutshooting on June 22nd, 2012, 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"If he's out of range, it just means that he has another day and so do you."

fallhunt
 
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Re: .410 pattern

Postby fallhunt » June 21st, 2012, 10:33 am

6 shot leaving a gun at 1135 fps will be the same no matter the gauge. I'm not going to shoot over 25 yrds. so I think it will do the job. I would like to get some Hevi-13 to shoot.I checked the web site and they do have factory .410 loads.Any idea on where I could pick some up? I live in central IL.

air leak
 
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Re: .410 pattern

Postby air leak » June 22nd, 2012, 8:04 am

"so I think it will do the job."

Using a .410 with #6's. Don't be surprised when a big Tom flies off after the shot.

charlie elk
 
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Re: .410 pattern

Postby charlie elk » June 22nd, 2012, 12:46 pm

allaboutshooting wrote:You have of course outlined the differences in patterns and penetration. For some of my work with the .410 SD loads, I used microcrystalline wax that was equivalent to ballistic gelatin but more stable and could be used in temperatures up to 70 degrees. I used the FBI standards for penetration on the wax, wall board and "dressed" wax. I also used the standard of 21' for my studies, even though I shot at distances as far as 60' or 20 yards.

I will not claim to be any kind of an expert when it comes to FBI tests or any other test where the target is human. Humans are very easy to kill compared to most game animals. For example; since it has become popular with many outdoor gun writers to quote fps in relation to bullet lethality more hunters are using light weight low caliber bullets for deer hunting. In my hunting areas in WI I am finding a lot these bullets lodged in the neck and spine of deer we butcher. My point is not to debate deer killing here on a turkey forum, only to point that out as an example of theory not performing as advertised under actual field conditions. Of course bullet placement is important but in the field things can go wrong, with any of those deer a 30 caliber would have shattered the spine.
As Ruark said "Use enough gun."

Back to the 410; on a patterning board it may or may not look good on paper. Paper is not bone. I took a turkey leg out and shot it with my 410 at 20 yds, the pellets did not break the bone nor did any of those thin shin bones. At 10 yds there was bone breakage but not an impressive amount. In my humble opinion there is not enough powder charge in a 410 for adequate penetration.
I am enjoying this discussion and after considering, have come to the conclusion it is unwise to use a 410 for turkeys. Rarely do I campaign to make anything illegal but I am coming to the conclusion WI and all other turkey states need to make a 20 gauge the minimum.
later,
charlie
If you agree with me call it fact; if you disagree - call it my opinion.
After all - we are talking turkey.

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allaboutshooting
 
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Re: .410 pattern

Postby allaboutshooting » June 22nd, 2012, 4:26 pm

fallhunt wrote:6 shot leaving a gun at 1135 fps will be the same no matter the gauge. I'm not going to shoot over 25 yrds. so I think it will do the job. I would like to get some Hevi-13 to shoot.I checked the web site and they do have factory .410 loads.Any idea on where I could pick some up? I live in central IL.


E.M. makes the 3 " "Classic Doubles" .410 shells with #6 shot but I've never seen any in any retail stores. They don't make a .410 shell with regular Hevi-Shot or Hevi-13. Of course in Illinois we can't use a .410 for turkeys regardless of the load.

Thanks,
Clark
"If he's out of range, it just means that he has another day and so do you."

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allaboutshooting
 
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Re: .410 pattern

Postby allaboutshooting » June 22nd, 2012, 4:53 pm

"I am enjoying this discussion and after considering, have come to the conclusion it is unwise to use a 410 for turkeys. Rarely do I campaign to make anything illegal but I am coming to the conclusion WI and all other turkey states need to make a 20 gauge the minimum."

Hey Charlie,

I agree these discussion are always interesting. It's good to be able to discuss subjects like this and hear what folks have to say about their experiences.

I used a number of the "Turkey Test Tubes" for evaluating the penetration of several turkey loads a few years ago. Reportedly, that material has the same density as the head of a mature gobbler. Other folks have used water soaked phone books, turkey necks, bones and all kinds of other materials to evaluate the penetration of various shot materials. One fellow even posted some postmortem x-rays of turkey necks and heads or actual gobblers he'd shot. All very interesting.

Here in Illinois, we can not use any shotgun with a bore smaller than 20 gauge for turkeys and I support that. There is a lot to be said for the effect of multiple hits of shot. We shoot 20 gauge 3" Hevi-13 turkey shells with 1.25 oz. of #6 shot in competition from March through November each year and I'm able to see a few hundred patterns from some good guns, chokes and shot by some excellent marksmen. Personally, I would not want to shoot anything with less capacity than the 20 gauge.

Evaluating our shotguns, chokes and loads is I think just a part of the total experience of this sport. We learn a lot about our "hardware" and our abilities as we do this.

Good conversation!

Thanks,
Clark
"If he's out of range, it just means that he has another day and so do you."

fallhunt
 
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Re: .410 pattern

Postby fallhunt » June 22nd, 2012, 5:41 pm

This hunt is going to take place in the fall and in MO. It will be in the timber where shots will be close,25 yrds. or less. I won't have to worry about taking down a big ol longbeard becouse I am not going to spend the time to scout and I can count on one hand ,with fingers left over, the amount of times I have seen longbeards on this public land we have been hunting the last 8 years. Calling in birds to this range is easy.I do it every year,Spring and Fall, and kill them with my bow. I sure wouldn't want to be shot in the face with a .410 at 25 yrds. Allaboutshooting,can you tell me about the classic double?I checked on Hevi-shots web site and it says soft like lead.Will it perform better that lead?Have you shot it yourself. Thanks for the help.

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