Left Over Permits are Posted

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dewey
 
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Re: Left Over Permits are Posted

Postby dewey » February 9th, 2012, 11:20 am

charlie elk wrote:WI has become a turkey hunter's paradise especially for residents although compared to other states NR coming to WI get one heck of deal on license fees. Depending on unit selected particularly 1&3 where permits have not sold out for the last 2 seasons any hunter can kill as many turkeys as they want, no limit except you can only purchase one tag per day. Of course you could stock up in advance if you have are really large pro turkey hunter ego. :lol:

As a young man living in MN I was one of the many volunteers helping with the turkey reintroduction. WDNR likes to rewrite the history a little by making it seems they the government workers came up with trading geese for turkeys with MO. However, it was volunteer citizen hunters in Forest Lake, MN who hatched that idea and began the stocking program with wild birds. MN agreed to trade geese and grouse for turkeys. The geese were easy to catch so MDNR and FWS took care of that part. The grouse well not so easy that task fell to some of us younger volunteers. Ever try and catch a grouse alive? Very labor intensive I think MN still owes MO quite a few grouse to this day. I worked on the grouse catching crews thereby earning my chance to release some turkeys in Houston.
Years later my most satisfying hunt ever; my very first turkey hunt in the hills of Houston, MN hunting for the descendants of the turkeys I released. Would love to claim that hunt culminated with a tagged gobbler but alas I had a lot to learn about turkey hunting. Took me 5 hunts before I figured it out but since that 5th hunt I have killed a turkey on every hunt since with few exceptions. But I digress.


WOW Charlie! Seriously WOW! I have never heard that story before and it is awesome to say you were involved with the reintroduction of turkeys into MN. Not very many people can say that they have done something as cool as that, at least in my eyes. Hats off to you.

In 2011 there were about 126,000 turkey licenses sold this is very light hunting pressure statewide. The number of turkey hunters has been going down each year and turkey population going up except for 2011 due to a severe winter in the areas I regularly peruse I think we lost about 30% of the turkeys(WDNR strongly disagrees with me on this.), even with that loss there is still plenty of birds.


I never saw the # of licenses sold in 2011 but as a comparison sake if WI has 320,000 birds an only sold 126,000 that is only 1 hunter for every 2.54 birds. Where in MN in 2011 the number of licenses sold was 45,983 with an estimated population of 70,000 so 1 hunter for every 1.56 birds. I would imagine that you, Charlie, bought about 5,000 tags last year, right :lol:

After hunting in WI last year I agree WI is very good to their NR hunters especially compared to other states where they require your arm, leg, first born and $$$$$$.

Dewey
"Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indomitable will." --Mahatma Gandhi

"Never confuse a single defeat with a final defeat."--F. Scott Fitzgerald, American writer

       

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turkey junky
 
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Re: Left Over Permits are Posted

Postby turkey junky » February 9th, 2012, 12:41 pm

i also have friends charlie that helped with the early MN turkey/grouse trap & trans plant wear i hunt turkeys in MN the land owner & his young son at the time helped set up the ruffed grouse traps i assume you did it the same way as they did charlie??? they would set up a fence type trap that would force/funnel the grouse down the fence & around a corner or make a little step down then into a holding type area wear the grouse would stay unless he could find his way back out & up & down the fence trap... the trouble came with like what charlie mentioned the keeping the grouse alive when catching & transporting the grouse else wear "grouse will just have a heart attack & fall over if stressed to much" mainly to the missouri ozarks area they didnt want up north forest grouse they wanted grouse that came from a habitat similar to what they would be living in down in MO bluff,coulee, oak ridge, river/stream system type terrain so they trapped out many of the local ruffed grouse populations in SE MN but the turkeys took off in the areas like houston but it is sad that we now do not have a hunt -able ruffed grouse population in SE MN & in talking to 2 hunters from the ozarks of MO they say they dont have any ruffed grouse down there to hunt so looks like both states messed up SE MN ruffed grouse numbers!!!

MN also once had merriams sub species wild turkey from SD black hills they failed & then came the trade with MO for turkeys & MN ruffed grouse geese & a few walleye stockings trade...

in talking about keeping ruffed grouse alive my brother cousin & i were hunting ruffed grouse 2 yrs ago & our dogs kicked up a bird close we all shot at it i shot & it veered strait up into the air like i head shot it it then straitend out & my brother shot it then crashed to the ground we went over & the grouse ran off our english setter rounded it up & we went 2 get it & the grouse was still verry much alive we then raped it up in my brothers sweat shirt & took it back to camp it lived he then took the grouse back home & nursed it back to health it had a banged up wing my brother had birds in pens so he kept it around for awhile i hope he took pics as it was really cool to see... after looking at how that bird could blend in & become invisable when i was 3 feet away makes me wonder how many grouse i walk by each season???

charlie elk
 
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Re: Left Over Permits are Posted

Postby charlie elk » February 10th, 2012, 3:27 pm

Treerooster wrote:
Interesting Charlie. I would like to know more on how you caught the ruffed grouse.

Speaking of wolves & turkey hunting...
I was scouting on a Tues one morning and heard a gobbler sounding off. I just wanted to figure where he was heading and was standing on the side of a road. I looked over and saw something coming...so I got down...

Cool wolf picture. I think WI might be the only state that has wolves and turkeys living in the same forests.
On my wolf encounter you'll have to excuse me for not taking my hands off my gun, he was too close and looking too hungry for turkey for me to reach my camera.

Grouse are very hard to catch many different techniques were tried bird nets, herding them into various forms of enclosures, baiting live traps etc. All mostly failed.
The only 2 ways I successfully caught them was to find a drumming log and set a bird snare on it with a manual trip string, meaning I had to be there if/when the grouse showed up. If it was set to auto trip the grouse usually beat themselves to death before my return. The other was to roost them preferably in evergreens. Then in the dark a partner would hold the light on the grouse while the other shimmied up the tree to grab em. The tree method captured both sexes whereas of course the drumming log got only the male.
In the late summer a friend and I spent weeks along the tamarack / birch swamp edges from the Snake River over to Woodland, Redtop, Isle and McGregor area roosting and grabbing grouse. Back in the early 70's this area had very large grouse population. For a change of scenery we sometimes worked in the jack pines over in the Nickerson area. That was my brush with being a "Jack Pine Savage". :)

BTW, Everyone should understand I was in the right place at the right time to be one of the many volunteers helping reestablish MN turkeys. I'm not taking credit for the turkey's return. It was one of the finest team efforts I have ever witnessed which I have a deeper appreciation of now looking back than I did at the time. I was just a teenager then. I wonder if any of the adults who hatched this turkey scheme are still alive. I haven't heard from or seen any of them since. The military pulled me out of circulation.
later,
charlie
If you agree with me call it fact; if you disagree - call it my opinion.
After all - we are talking turkey.

charlie elk
 
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Re: Left Over Permits are Posted

Postby charlie elk » February 10th, 2012, 3:37 pm

Dewey wrote
if WI has 320,000 birds an only sold 126,000 that is only 1 hunter for every 2.54 birds. Where in MN in 2011 the number of licenses sold was 45,983 with an estimated population of 70,000 so 1 hunter for every 1.56 birds. I would imagine that you, Charlie, bought about 5,000 tags last year, right :lol:

That's an interesting way of breaking down numbers on number of birds per hunter, had not thought of that.
5000 tags don't I wish! That would only be $50,000 at res prices......if only my checkbook was that deep. :)
And oh dear WI so many tags so little time. 8-)
later,
charlie
If you agree with me call it fact; if you disagree - call it my opinion.
After all - we are talking turkey.

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turkey junky
 
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Re: Left Over Permits are Posted

Postby turkey junky » February 12th, 2012, 1:51 pm

hey charlie as for the wolf in the turkey woods thing i have to add that i have been to montana turkey hunting & i know they have wolf in the area but not as many as MN dose but wolf & turkey do intermingle there in montana also... & also near my hunting cabin near tamarack/mcgregor MN area your old ruffed grouse catching grounds is the only place i have ever actually seen a gray wolf in the wild there are wolf & turkey in the same woods in that area i only wish i would of got a picture of our forest road last fall i was hunting grouse & came upon a few wolf tracks & a few fresh piles of poop from the wolf i followed its tracks out to the road wear some jerk was dumping bear bait in a ditch the wolf tracks passed the bait & went into a tamarack swamp so i walked the road back to camp... later that day while i was leaving the forest on the forest road about 100 yards past the bait pile wear the wolf tracks crossed the forest road my buddy & i seen something black on the side of the road i thought wolf? my buddy said bear? then 2 big ol jake wild turkeys stepped out onto the forest road & just trotted on down the forest road just ahead of our car finely they just stepped of the road & let us pass it was a great site to see in a forest that has moose bear wolf bobcat fisher & pine martin already!!! also there are many hay & cattle farmers in that region & a lot of log n & 1 of the local loggers is a NWTF member & was a major part of trap & trans planting turkeys in that northern tier of the wild turkeys range in NE MN it is becoming more & more common to see turkeys on our way to deer/grouse camp each season it is great site to see that far up north!!! i never herd so many wolf as i did last deer hunting season up near ORR MN on the canadian border we could call back & forth to them damn near every night i was there 12 days also once it snowed i went down to my stand/area i was hunting & there was 3 sets of wolf track in my shooting lane!!! fresh poop all over man i was kinda on edge the rest of the trip...

putt
 
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Re: Left Over Permits are Posted

Postby putt » February 12th, 2012, 6:40 pm

charlie elk wrote: MN agreed to trade geese and grouse for turkeys.


Charlie

Great stories. I can't imagine the patience it took to sit hidden by a grouse drumming-log, with a manual trip-string, waiting for a grouse to show up. A mighty slow way to accumulate trading grouse.

I have read stories about Wis trading grouse for stocking turkeys. But I've gotta again show my ignorance by asking about the geese.

I can see relocating turkeys & grouse ... they tend to stay where you put them. But relocating migrating birds like geese? It would seem that when the season changes & the migrating urge hits, they'd be long gone,

Unless I guess if they were relocated shortly before nesting, & the hope was that their offspring would be imprinted with the new location, & return there.

As one who came to turkey hunting just a few years ago, I thank you & the other early folks for your work relocating those critters that I've come to love so much.

Putt

charlie elk
 
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Re: Left Over Permits are Posted

Postby charlie elk » February 13th, 2012, 12:09 pm

putt wrote:But I've gotta again show my ignorance by asking about the geese.
Great stories. I can't imagine the patience it took to sit hidden by a grouse drumming-log, with a manual trip-string, waiting for a grouse to show up. A mighty slow way to accumulate trading grouse. Putt


Not sure about the rational for the geese; to be truthful until you brought that point up I had never thought about it, since I was probably like most teens- focused on my area of duties- I didn't concern myself with the goose department. :? To this day I know very little about waterfowl so we can go with the imprint concept. I do know MN has always had year round resident geese.
No matter how the grouse catching was done it was very slow and difficult. From the stories I heard there was a lot attempts using bird nets and herding or driving grouse with beaters. Apparently that didn't work out so well either as anyone who hunts grouse will attest they are random flyers and rarely run.
If back then they would have had drugs for boys suffering from ADD they certainly would have drugged me up good. But I lucked out. Being the drug option was not there the school administration banished me for my junior and senior years to the Ag department for OJT (on the job training) projects. Apparently the Ag instructors and FFA leaders thought it wise to get me out in the field doing something as much as possible. As avid trapper at the time earning money with fur and bounties they thought it natural to approve the grouse project. But I digress again.
When the state permitted my grouse project I viewed it as manna from heaven, out in the woods and out of school for days on end....
Sitting vigils by drumming logs required a lot less patience than anything in school. Surprisingly springtime drumming grouse are very consistent and timely using their logs. So many of the waits were not all that long unless something had distracted the grouse. I found they had things in common with teenage boys and girls. :D
Taking them off the roost at night was the most effective method. Grab might not be exactly the right term for this- I made a catcher out of a broom handle with a wire loop at the end just wide enough to hook the grouse leg between the drumstick and foot. Blinding them with a light and with a little practice you could snag them out on their limb, pull em back in, hood the head, slip em into a gunny sack hanging on your belt and repeat for the next one. The hardest part of this was finding the roosted birds. Doing this prior to the falls crazy flight a whole family could be captured.
later,
charlie
If you agree with me call it fact; if you disagree - call it my opinion.
After all - we are talking turkey.

charlie elk
 
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Re: Left Over Permits are Posted

Postby charlie elk » February 13th, 2012, 12:21 pm

turkey junky wrote:hey charlie as for the wolf in the turkey woods thing i have to add that i have been to montana turkey hunting & i know they have wolf in the area but not as many as MN dose but wolf & turkey do intermingle there in montana also... & also near my hunting cabin near tamarack/mcgregor MN area your old ruffed grouse catching grounds is the only place i have ever actually seen a gray wolf in the wild there are wolf & turkey in the same woods in that area.

Good point I had not considered MT I thought the wolves were mostly on the west side of MT with a small turkey population in the SE. Thinking of western states ID may have wolf and turkeys range mingled too. Now you got me curious I'll have to check this out in ID.
Good news turkeys are that far north in MN! I haven't been up there afield in years bet the area has really changed.
Just curious does the term the "old Jones Farm" mean anything to you? Or the name Alex Moose?
later,
charlie
If you agree with me call it fact; if you disagree - call it my opinion.
After all - we are talking turkey.

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turkey junky
 
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Re: Left Over Permits are Posted

Postby turkey junky » February 14th, 2012, 1:57 pm

yes charlie ID may be another state with turkey & wolves co living around 1 another
i know in the extream NW part of MT wear it borders ID there is turkeys & wolves together write on the british columbia canada border with the usa... ID isnt that far away so id bet there is wolves & turkey in that region also... i would assume wyoming may also in & around the yellowstone NP areas & MT border???


no charlie them names do not ring a bell but i am a young buck so let me ask my old man & see what he has stored in the memory bank??? i know a few of the guys i know that helped with the SE MN grouse capture & turkey trap & trans plant are still alive & kick n there was a father son in SE MN named joe & bob pellowski joe was a retired military man & his son was a young teen at the time they set traps for grouse & also assisted in releases of wild turkey around the area caledonia... another man that was working for the local DNR & lived in the area was bobby knutson he also was involved in the turkey releases mostly but did catch a few grouse off his parents farm & let turkeys go in same area he was involved in the early merriams transplanting also he helped recomend wear suitable habitat was & wear farmers wouldnt mind the turkeys... up north in MN grouse country the man who is involved with the NWTF releasing turkeys in that northern range is marty johnson & he also has a younger son that helps as well cant remember his name???
i will ask about the "old jones farm" i have hunted a lot of the area & i know i hunted some are with a similar name it was "the old something or other farm" i will look it up & try & figure it out???


as for the wolves thing way back around the early turkey trap & trans plant days there was a high high number of deer in the area witch there still is causing crop damage & the local farmers were mad at the deer so the MNDNR thought it would be a good idea to try & relocate a few gray wolves to SE MN & try & cut back the deer numbers in there area so there may have been a little wolves & turkey intermingling way back in the day... i do remember about 7-9 yrs ago? a guy down in SE MN shot a wolf & thought it was a big coyote??? there is also cougar that pass threw the drift-less region of MN & WI even IA...

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