wats the problem with 3 1/2" shells?

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silvestris
 
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RE: wats the problem with 3 1/2" shells?

Postby silvestris » February 9th, 2009, 3:34 am

A pattern only has to be so good at the ranges I shoot.  And I have neither the time nor money to be testing a lot of high priced ammo.  I am gonna try a few 3" shells (I killed a truckload in the ancient 2 3/4 " days) and whatever gives me the best at 40 yards (3" or 3 1/2") will be adequate at 30-35 yards.  Them 50-60 yard birds don't belong to me anyway.
Why be good when you can B-Mobile or Spin & Strut.

icdedturkes
 
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RE: wats the problem with 3 1/2" shells?

Postby icdedturkes » February 9th, 2009, 6:48 am

Ummm Clark, I hope the delay in response is due to the fact you are diggin up numbers and photos to back the 2 3/4 inch over 3 1/2 claim

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dmcianfa
 
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RE: wats the problem with 3 1/2" shells?

Postby dmcianfa » February 9th, 2009, 7:43 am

I'm not sure what the hack is on 3.5's either.  Your talking about one shot, more times than not, on your turkey and any more than that and he is off runnin out of range 99% of the time anyway as they can run 30 mph and fly at 55 mph. Your chances of hitting one after that decline dramatically.  Why is anyone worried about recoil when turkey hunting for that exact reason.  It's not like your firing at will on these birds with multiple rounds time after time.  I guess if you don't practice one bit and miss all the time, then yes, I would worry.  But, if you shoulder the weapon correctly you won't get that awful bite from recoil and bruising as a result , even if you do it's once a turkey season, which most states only let you shoot one gobbler.  Granted this is after you know your weapon and have patterned it in the past and know how it shoots, so there is no continous use throughout the year to adjust the shotgun.

Additionally, if you match a good choke to your 3.5 shells you shoot, whether that be Nitro, Heavy, Rem, whatever, you've increased your effective distance, velocity, and possibly pattern if you do your homework.  Granted it takes some money to pattern the various combinations of shells and chokes, but you CAN get an equal and consistent pattern to that of 3" shells.  I see no problem with a pump 3.5" either.  I have no problem cycling with them chambered in my weapon.  JMO[:)]

P.S. = I use statistics to determine the best pattern with different combinations.  i.e.  Measure in centimeters each pellet hole how far it is from your target, ex. 6.5 cm (centimeters is more accurate).  Average the readings (pellet hole distances).  This is your mean.  Then take the standard deviation of those pellet hole distances.  this is your variance.  The combination which has a mean closer to the target (0 cm) with the lowest standard deviation is your "best pattern" combination.  Standard Deviation formula can be found on wikipedia or other just punch it into google and follow the example after you click the link to wiki.  I would focus more on the Standard Deviation though, because it is much easier to move or control the mean (aiming point) than the variance (pattern).
"After eating an entire moose, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him. The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut."

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silvestris
 
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RE: wats the problem with 3 1/2" shells?

Postby silvestris » February 9th, 2009, 9:24 am

I think I will just keep eyeballing my patterns.  If he can't escape the pattern, he is dead.
Why be good when you can B-Mobile or Spin & Strut.

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dmcianfa
 
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RE: wats the problem with 3 1/2" shells?

Postby dmcianfa » February 9th, 2009, 9:38 am

ORIGINAL: silvestris

I think I will just keep eyeballing my patterns.  If he can't escape the pattern, he is dead.


That is exactly the mentality GM and Ford took when it came to quality, and we all know how that story is going to end.  Toyota on the other hand, did a little more than "eyeball" their process.  It could mean the difference between a kill EVERYTIME, to a "I don't know what happened, I must have missed the bird" or worse injuring a bird and never recovering it.  But, I understand silvestris, not everyone has the time or money.  I certainly lack both as of late![:D][:'(]
 
Anyay, back to turkey huntin' and turkey topics I suppose
"After eating an entire moose, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him. The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut."

icdedturkes
 
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RE: wats the problem with 3 1/2" shells?

Postby icdedturkes » February 9th, 2009, 10:11 am

ORIGINAL: dmcianfa


P.S. = I use statistics to determine the best pattern with different combinations.  i.e.  Measure in centimeters each pellet hole how far it is from your target, ex. 6.5 cm (centimeters is more accurate).  Average the readings (pellet hole distances).  This is your mean.  Then take the standard deviation of those pellet hole distances.  this is your variance.  The combination which has a mean closer to the target (0 cm) with the lowest standard deviation is your "best pattern" combination.  Standard Deviation formula can be found on wikipedia or other just punch it into google and follow the example after you click the link to wiki.  I would focus more on the Standard Deviation though, because it is much easier to move or control the mean (aiming point) than the variance (pattern).
Ok are you serious????????????????  What I gather from all this statistical stuff is that you base your pattern entirely on center density. So if your aiming point is a one inch circle and some way you managed to squeeze all of your pellets in a 3inch circle with your 1 inch circle being the aiming point, that pattern would be dubbed better, than a pattern with a good center dense core of say ten inches with a good even pattern over say an entire eighteen inch circle.
 
Silvertris is somewhat correct in his post about eyeballing patterns, it gives you a good idea of the effectiveness of your gun. And I to that counting circles 10 and 20 are an effective way of comparing one load, choke, gun vs another. Coupled together with a good eye ball of the pattern for holes and tight spots, one can easily determine there best combo for their gun.

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Cut N Run
 
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RE: wats the problem with 3 1/2" shells?

Postby Cut N Run » February 9th, 2009, 11:37 am

I never shot a 3.5 inch shell because the 3" work fine for me.  If I were hunting someplace with open terrain that required longer shots, I might try them.  As it is, I get a good pattern that goes where I want it every time.
 
Have to say I haven't gone to pellet count yet either. While you might get some difference in pellet count each shot, you mainly want to see if there are any holes in the pattern (& switch loads or chokes if there are). I've shot a lot of shells at turkey targets the shooting range at various distances from the chair I hunt out of, figured out which performed best, and stuck with that.  I shoot several times before the season to make sure everything is where it is supposed to be, then go hunting.
 
Last season for practice I burnt up 70+ rounds at the range from 20 to 50 yards (new gun/choke). I shot exactly one time during the season last year (16 yard kill). The place I hunt is so tight, I've actually shot most turkeys inside 25 yards than outside that range. You can sometimes see turkeys farther away, but they are usually not decent shots, so I let 'em pass (or if they are walking closer, let 'em come on).
 
Jim
Luck Counts, good or bad

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dmcianfa
 
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RE: wats the problem with 3 1/2" shells?

Postby dmcianfa » February 9th, 2009, 12:07 pm

 Ok are you serious????????????????  What I gather from all this statistical stuff is that you base your pattern entirely on center density. So if your aiming point is a one inch circle and some way you managed to squeeze all of your pellets in a 3inch circle with your 1 inch circle being the aiming point, that pattern would be dubbed better, than a pattern with a good center dense core of say ten inches with a good even pattern over say an entire eighteen inch circle.

Silvertris is somewhat correct in his post about eyeballing patterns, it gives you a good idea of the effectiveness of your gun. And I to that counting circles 10 and 20 are an effective way of comparing one load, choke, gun vs another. Coupled together with a good eye ball of the pattern for holes and tight spots, one can easily determine there best combo for their gun.


First of all, I never shoot 3" dia patterns.  Where are you getting that from? Unless of course I shoot a turkey 7 yrds from me. In that case if you miss from seven yards with a 3" dia pattern, whel maybe you should hang up the gun and quit turkey huntin' son.  I am talking about outliers (stray pellets) causing high variation at much longer distances.  That pellet that falls outside your tolerance that could be in if you had the right combination of factors that influence your "pattern".  I am not going to get that much of a change in dia. (3" to 10" like you say) just by changing a brand choke of the same specs (XFull, etc..) or by changing similar brand loads while firing at the exact same distance.  Where is your head?  The change will be minute, but getting the most pellets in your desired specification (tolerance) area, (for some it may be 12" dia), will determine your capability of the combination, the statistics of mean and standard deviation get you there. Please, do some research into the stats of it and you will see.  If not I can show you, but I'm not going to waste everyone's time here to explain it if you don't understand it, read before you discount entirely.  I will pm you on the content if you like.  If you put it into numbers you can identify holes and tight spots as well, mathematically with a pareto diagram.  Then you can make a decision based on real data and fact, not "well, I think this paper looks better than this one"!  THEN I ASK THE SHOOTER WHY AND HE CAN'T TELL ME, all the time not realizing there is another combination that was better the whole time.

Can anyone else attest to this or see relevence in analyzing your shot this way.  Maybe I'm just too damn technical here?
"After eating an entire moose, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him. The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut."

icdedturkes
 
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RE: wats the problem with 3 1/2" shells?

Postby icdedturkes » February 9th, 2009, 12:14 pm

I walked out the door of College Statistics with an A, forgot everything the next day so I aint gonna try to understand your methodology. Thanks for trying to explain.
 
I think I will stick with the counting and looking.

wisturkeyhunter
 
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RE: wats the problem with 3 1/2" shells?

Postby wisturkeyhunter » February 9th, 2009, 12:26 pm

Anything beyond counting hits in a 10 inch circle is a waste of time. I can get a pretty reasonable idea of what pattern is better just by a quick look at the pattern don't really even need to count.
 

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