.410 pattern

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allaboutshooting
 
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Re: .410 pattern

Postby allaboutshooting » June 23rd, 2012, 9:01 am

fallhunt wrote:This hunt is going to take place in the fall and in MO. It will be in the timber where shots will be close,25 yrds. or less. I won't have to worry about taking down a big ol longbeard becouse I am not going to spend the time to scout and I can count on one hand ,with fingers left over, the amount of times I have seen longbeards on this public land we have been hunting the last 8 years. Calling in birds to this range is easy.I do it every year,Spring and Fall, and kill them with my bow. I sure wouldn't want to be shot in the face with a .410 at 25 yrds. Allaboutshooting,can you tell me about the classic double?I checked on Hevi-shots web site and it says soft like lead.Will it perform better that lead?Have you shot it yourself. Thanks for the help.


I love the fall for hunting turkeys. It's a time when you can see and hear turkeys, up close and personal. I've learned more about how turkeys act in the fall than any other time.

Classic doubles shot was originally designed for older guns, with softer barrel material, for situations in which non-toxic shot is required. It is a cast product that is much softer than original Hevi-Shot or Hevi-13. I have shot a good bit of it in 12 gauge guns and performance is very good. As I recall, it has the same approximate density as most lead shot. They do use high quality components, so you might see better performance from it than less expensive lead shotshells but the price is correspondingly higher. It would be interesting to see if you had better patterns with it than from your other lead shells and since you intend to use it for turkeys, you would not be firing scores of rounds.

Thanks,
Clark
"If he's out of range, it just means that he has another day and so do you."

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hawglips
 
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Re: .410 pattern

Postby hawglips » August 6th, 2012, 6:36 pm

Unless you are going to club the turkey to death, it isn't the gun that kills the turkey, but what comes out of the gun's barrel that does the killing.

Here is my 40 yd (10" and 20") pattern with two different .410 TSS handloads. It's a bonafide 40 yard turkey rig with either load, and out performs my 12 ga Moss 500 setup shooting lead #4s.

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I wouldn't shoot the .410 at turkeys if I didn't load the gun with the high octane shot, but like any other rig, as long as the hunter knows the limitations of his setup, and stays within them, then it's all good.

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hawglips
 
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Re: .410 pattern

Postby hawglips » August 6th, 2012, 7:33 pm

I am enjoying this discussion and after considering, have come to the conclusion it is unwise to use a 410 for turkeys. Rarely do I campaign to make anything illegal but I am coming to the conclusion WI and all other turkey states need to make a 20 gauge the minimum.


The problem is, these types of laws are mostly ill-advised and counterproductive.

For example, in a few states, you can can only shoot turkeys with #6 shot and larger. So, I can load up my gun with #6 steel, but not #7 HWT, even though the #7 HWT gives over 3 times the penetration energy that #6 steel gives.

Same problem applies to bore size restrictions. My current favorite turkey gun is a 28 gauge, loaded with 18g/cc shot. Here's what it looks like at 40 yds (10" and 20" circles), loaded with shot that is equal to #4 lead or #5 hevi in ft lbs per sq inch. This small bore setup outperforms the vast majority of 12 ga rigs in use on a typical day in the turkey woods.

Image

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hawglips
 
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Re: .410 pattern

Postby hawglips » August 7th, 2012, 11:43 am

TurkeyComander wrote:We could argue for ever about the ft lbs of energy thing based on shot density and you would never convince me of the silly non sense.


It's too late. Thousands of turkeys were killed this past spring with the "silly non sense," using the "energy thing based on shot density" to their advantage.

Waterfowlers have been aware of and have been taking advantage of the nonsense for many years now. One would have to be pretty out of touch with things to still be unconvinced, in 2012, that #2 hevishot is a more destructive pellet than #2 steel -- precisely because of the energy thing based on shot density.

So, there is no debate or argument or question or need to convince anyone about the "energy thing based on shot density". That goose has been plucked clean, cooked, and eaten, long ago. If there is still anyone who is truthfully unconvinced of it, well, not much to say about that.

As to how the energy thing based on shot density applies to turkey hunting, I am perfectly comfortable taking a .410 or 28 gauge into the turkey woods knowing that I will kill any turkey I put the pattern on within traditional 12 gauge ranges. And significantly farther than that with the 28.

But I also must admit that I'm cheating by using the energy thing based on shot density to my advantage.

fallhunt
 
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Re: .410 pattern

Postby fallhunt » August 7th, 2012, 1:00 pm

I got some Hevi-shot loads that i am going to pattern this weekend in my .410. October is getting close.

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hawglips
 
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Re: .410 pattern

Postby hawglips » August 7th, 2012, 5:25 pm

TurkeyComander wrote:You'll get no argument from me when comparing pellets of equal size.


If you can understand that #2 hevishot carries more energy than #2 steel, can you likewise understand that #2 hevishot carries more energy than a larger #1 steel? How about steel BBs? Can you see that as well? How about steel T shot? Can you also understand why #2 hevishot carries more penetration energy than steel #T pellets, even though it's a lot smaller?

It's the energy thing based on shot density. Far from nonsense. It's physics. A fact of life that has been universally understood in the shotgun world for a very long time now.

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hawglips
 
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Re: .410 pattern

Postby hawglips » August 9th, 2012, 1:51 pm

There is no debate, argument or need to convince anyone in 2012 about the energy thing based on density. It is proven fact. There is no question. It's been understood since the advent of mandatory steel shot waterfowl regulations and the ammo mfrs' studies based on it, as well as the millions of hunters who have had to adjust their shot size selection based upon it. Everybody knows how going 3g/cc lighter (from 11g/cc density to 8g/cc density) requires significantly larger pellets and/or speed to deliver similar energy. If there are still any serious questions about it, which I doubt, then those questions are a result of ignorance, nothing more. This question has been settled long, long ago -- way before TSS ever became an option for shotgunners. Since the 3g/cc difference is so stark, and requires such a significant shot size adjustment, it is of no surprise to any open mind that a 7g/cc difference (from 11g/cc lead to 18g/cc TSS) will warrant a much greater adjustment in shot size.

As for what the energy thing based on density can do for turkey hunters who like to shoot .410s, the 18g/cc load patterns above are factual documented testimony to it. Anyone who has ever tried to get a 40 yd pattern with a .410 will comprehend the significance.

As to how those little high density pellets that threw those patterns and punched through tin so much better than lead handle flesh and blood turkeys out of those small bored guns, here are a few examples from this year.

28 ga, 19 yds
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.410, ? yds
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.410, 20 yds
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.410, 26 yds
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28 ga, 29 yds
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28 ga, 35 yds
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28 ga, 53 yds
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As the use of the high density little pellets continue to rapidly increase among small bore hunters, there will be many many more.

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hawglips
 
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Re: .410 pattern

Postby hawglips » August 11th, 2012, 5:28 am

In addition to allowing grown men the pleasure of toting a small gun with very big gun performance after turkeys, the energy thing based on density allows small children the chance to have a much better chance at killing a turkey than they have otherwise. It opens a whole new world of possibilities.

28 ga, 6 yr old girl,
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hawglips
 
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Re: .410 pattern

Postby hawglips » December 4th, 2012, 5:50 am

Here's another from this fall, 28 gauge, 35 yards.

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hawglips
 
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Re: .410 pattern

Postby hawglips » December 9th, 2012, 9:44 pm

Here's another 28 gauge bird from yesterday.

This one was at 44 yds with the 1-5/16 oz load of TSS 9s. It never flopped at all.

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